Glenside isn't too far from here. It's a burb of Philly.

Again, these newer cars have lousy machine design. Everyting needs an OFF switch and why would you not make the brakes more powerful than the engine?

hahahahahah, co$t of course!

I understand the off switch and its uses. I just don't understand how the average driver will know to use it.

Don't get me wrong; the off switch is a good idea. But I think better driver training is an even better idea.

Alas, I don't think, though, that driver's training would have helped the driver of the family of four who were killed in their Lexus. To make matters more dire, I was told today the driver was a defensive driving instructor for the L.A. Sheriff.

At that point, the error was in the car's engineering. I mean, who would know the transmission won't shift into neutral if the car is above idle?

Most performance cars (and in honestly virtually every car sold today is one) can easily overwhelm their brakes. Any car with any kind of guts can do a power-brake holeshot.

To my way of thinking, my car has two "off swotches", I can put the car in neutral stopping power input to the wheels and I can turn the switch to the off position.

In these computer controlled things, both actions are apparaently mediated by a control computer that has it's own logic. To my way of thinking either of these actions should bypass the computer and act dircetly onthe thing being asked to do the task.

Keyless ignition = "problem" that didn't need to be solved? Has anyone honestly ever complained about the damn heavy annoying key in their pocket? With no key, how do you get in when the battery dies? Engineers - just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You are kidding, right? Do you know how awesome it is to not have to fumble for keys? Do you not have a wife whose keys are constantly somewhere at the bottom of her purse when you are in a hurry? Do you have several cars, or at least several keys you sort through when you get in or start your car? Leaving the fob in your pocket (or purse) and just lifting the door handle and then pressing a start button is fantastic.

When the battery dies most 'smart' systems have a physical key in the fob to gain access. The good ones also have an energizing 'ring' inside that can validate the fob's frequency to start the car even with a dead fob battery.

Toyota just uses different logic / programming to defeat their ignition stop/start that required the driver to depress the button for 3 seconds. Not all manufacturers share that requirement, as mentioned here.

Anyway, once you have a keyless system you'll wonder how you lived without it!

Tell me how awesome it is when you are plummeting to your death in a totally out of control car bro.

Sorry chief, but I, for one, think that not every interaction in my life needs to be mediated by some "nanny" software to be sure I don't do the "wrong" thing.

FWIW, I have an engineering degree and hold a PE license. For my employers, I have always had a duty for ensure that the stuff built and used in my facility will not have unintended actions that may hurt or otherwise injure someone.

In a past life, my job included design of systems to use materials that can kill you before you knew what hit you. I have to designed, maintained, and done forensics when things failed. There is an incredible amount of design out there that fails to account for all failure modes. Sometimes, by trying to shield the operator from small problems, the design creates large ones that cannot be mitigated by the end user.

I find that many software people are not willing or able to debug their systems the way mechanical systems are debugged to ensure there are no preventible hazardous operating modes. They seem to prefer to wait for the failure and patch the code. For the "operating system" of a motor vehicle, this is a deadly approach.

FWIW: I find the On-star commericals very chilling due to the level of control the car owner has ceded to strangers.

Again, not all cars that are pushbutton stop/start share the failings of the Toyotas in question. Most will simply and immediately accept the command and shut down the engine.

It's just like the aforementioned differences in the gas pedal itself. I had a first-hand experience in late 2002 when GM switched to drive-by-wire on their 6.0L GMC 2500 PU. The logic / programming in that case looked at three sensors at the pedal. Two of the three sensors needed to 'agree' what needed to be done. If they did not, the default was to 'limp', only accepting up to 10% throttle even if the pedal was to the floor. It was a failsafe GM built in. The pedal failed and I had to 'limp' to the dealer at 20mph. Frustrating, but better than Toyota's alternative.

Yes, i would say so.

Toyota, it would appear, has mightily fked the pooch.

3:05 - the driver is able to put the Camry in neutral at WOT

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So when are they going to recall ALL OF THEM for the faulty programming logic?

That's the really dangerous culprit here.

102 incidents with toyota's according to the above video.

another good one, with a Venza. Shows how inefective the brakes are after being pumped at WOT

Still, at WOT they put it in neutral:

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While exiting the grocery store the other night, a woman exiting at the same time, pointed her key fob at an Escalade, turned on the vehicle's lights, started the engine, then unlocked the doors and raised the tailgate to load in her groceries.

Meanwhile, all I could do was unlock my own doors; forget about raising the tailgate or turning on the engine (presumably to start the heat - it was cold that night).

So yeah, while I'm not completely "down" with modern technology, I find retro grouches or those who refuse innovation to be rather...well...close-minded.

I've heard there have been a few isolated incidents of people being eaten by the rear ends of their Escalades...

Even if the brakes aren't enough to fully stop a car a WOT, the consumer reports video clearly shows they would still slow that car down enough to avoid a major accident.

I dunno. I get the impression that if they relied on the brakes, the average driver would have one "kick at the can" before they lost the vacuum assist and found the pedal to hard to push. If they continued pressing, the brakes would overheat pretty fast and lose any effectiveness.

At first I thought this whole thing was a bit of hysteria, but yikes, it really does seem to be an issue. I don't get the impression Toyota really knows what the problem is either. Has anyone actually seen a dissassemble gas pedal, or even a diagram that clearly shows the issue? Service bulletins going back 5-6 years for "surging" doesn't instill much confidence either.

On the flip side, as scary as it is that the problem exists, it's even MORE frightening that drivers aren't just popping it into neutral. It seems so basic and instinctual, but try this:

I asked a 6 people yesterday if they'd know to throw it in neutral. 3 of them said they didn't know what "neutral" did. THAT is scary

On the upside, Toyota has *finally* made the corrola an exciting car to drive

this is a big problem for all of us, not just the driver of a broken toyota. imagine your on your motorcycle or car and a toyota loses control...i hope toyota solves this immediately. My 911 throttle stuck once in highway traffic and it was not pleasant. i avoided an accident but I cant imagine most people not panicking and crashing into you or me

It certainly does highlight just how little driver training there is in the US.

More tech = more to break. Again why I love my simple Land Cruiser. I've never felt that the action of using a key was cumbersome. Though I would like keyless entry......

Wrong. Firestone denied and fought and covered up. Toyota is doing the exact opposite.
There have been 19 deaths, and ALL of them were due to people not putting their floor mats in correctly and the FLOOR mats caused the accelerator to stick.
During that investigation Toyota uncovered a different problem, one that is very rare but dangerous. It is a problem with the design of the gas pedal made by the Mackenzie brothers. Too much moose-head or something.

Toyota is working to re-design the pedals and announced that they have come up with a solution and have submitted it to NHTSA for approval.

See, that is called being proactive. That is called doing the right thing.
What I don't understand is the tendency of some to try and exaggerate the situation and say ridiculous crap like toyota doesn't make good cars anymore. Hogwash.

To those of you who have suddenly taken on a mob mentality, go take a look in the freaking mirror.
Toyota doesn't make good cars anymore, BS. Someone doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sammy, you are dead wrong about the Firestone thing. I know some of the players involved, and the story told in the media doesn't really reflect the actual events.

And in this case, Toyota appears to be covering up a bug in their drive-by-wire software by blaming it on a supplier. A stuck pedal will not cause a car to accelerate, it will cause a car to maintain speed. And I've never seen a floor mat hold down a pedal, but I have seen one prevent a pedal from being pressed down.

That's funny.
I used to have a 1995 chebby silverado. It was made in CANADA with mexican parts. Eh?
Now I drive a tundra, made in SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS, in the United States of America. Built by American workers. LOL.

When it had about 5000 miles on it some turd changed lanes into it and creased the fender and bumper.
While it was in the shop they gave me a brand new silverado to drive for a week.

It was a POS compared to the Toyota. Cheap plastic all over the place that felt like it was gonna snap off when you touched it, and it liked to change lanes when you hit a decent sized bump or dip.
The seats are crap, i didn't like the brakes at all, and the turning radius was a half mile.
My buddy I car pool with has a silverado, I hate riding in that thing. The seat is designed all wrong, there's no way to get comfortable in it.

I haven't driven a ford since the late 80's when I traded in the third ford lemon i had owned. Everyone was a POS, the last one (a ford ranger) didn't make it to 60,000 miles before i had to dump it. It was tow-truck bait and had been in the shop 4 times, 3 of them were for major work.
And every time the dealer tried to screw me over and not honor the warranty.
It's be a cold day in hell before I own another ford POS.

Do the dodge trucks still come stock with a spare water pump, AC compressor, and alternator just in case? ;)

My understanding was that Toyota has not blamed the supplier, and that Toyota admitted the parts were properly built to Toyota's design.

Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America (TEMA) has also been working closely with our pedal supplier CTS on a revised design that effectively remedies the problem. These pedals are now in full production at CTS to support Toyota’s needs. At the same time, we continue to work with CTS to test effective pedal modifications for existing vehicles on the road that will be available to our customers as quickly as possible.

I read this as an admission that the design needs to be changed, if CTS were at fault this paragraph would have referred to manufacturing procedures or QA changes implemented to prevent a re-occurrence. But, there still may be a software issue on top of the CTS hardware issue.

It is interesting that Toyota appears to be working with their supplier, when the 'typical' automotive response would have been a lawsuit against the supplier.

I have a patient who is a Master Certified Toyota Mechanic. He told me a month before the recall the company was making plans to not only change the pedal cluster but the ECU software.

He said the company will make the dealers absorb a significant portion of repair costs and the techs will in turn get the shaft from the dealers by not being allowed to charge full book time for their labor.

I find it interesting that despite his strong affiliation with Toyota he drives a Ford F150, his wife a Lincoln and his kid a Sebring.

Uh huh, so all the denials and finger-pointing between ford and firestone was just my imagination?
The fact that they blamed the owners for driving with the tires under inflated and that caused the tread separation didn't really happen?
They don't officially still say there wasn't anything wrong with the tires?
They didn't refuse to do a recall until the federal government was deep into the investigation?
The federal government didn't start investigating the deaths in May of 2000 and firestone didn't drag their feet and finally agree to supply the requested information in July after a great deal of legal wrangling, and didn't agree to the forced recall until August?

IIRC they called it a voluntary recall but there wasn't anything voluntary about it.
Even in the "voluntary" recall they still denied there was anything wrong with their tires. It was the consumer's fault for not keeping enough air in the tires.
That's what they still say.
I wonder why consumers would run firestone tires under-inflated but didn't do that with any other manufacturer's tires?

Here's what the government said, as a comparison to what firestone said:

WASHINGTON — The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has announced the recall of 127,183 Firestone FR380 tires, size P235/75R15 because of a potential safety defect.

The tires were manufactured between September 2007 and July 2008, and were produced with insufficient tread base gauge. Continued use of those tires may lead to vibration and groove cracking, while extended use could lead to tread distortion or tread separation and a loss of vehicle control.

Firestone's parent company, Bridgestone, will notify owners and replace the tires free of charge.

Owners can call (800) 465-1904.

N.H.T.S.A. Firestone Tire Recall

Tire Brand Name / Tire Line / Tire Size: FIRESTONE / FR380 / P235/75R15

Production Dates: SEP 09, 2007 - JUL 02, 2008

Manufacturer: BRIDGESTONE/FIRESTONE NORTH AMERICA TIRE

Mfr's Report Date: JUN 25, 2009

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 09T007000 N/A

NHTSA Action Number: N/A

Component: TIRES:TREAD/BELT

Potential Number of Units Affected: 127183

Summary:

BRIDGESTONE AMERICAS TIRE OPERATIONS, LLC (BATO) IS RECALLING 127,183 FIRESTONE FR380 TIRES, SIZE P235/75R15, MANUFACTURED FROM SEPTEMBER 9, 2007 THROUGH JULY 2, 2008. THESE TIRES WERE PRODUCED WITH INSUFFICIENT TREAD BASE GAUGE.

Consequence:

CONTINUED USE OF THE SUBJECT TIRES MAY LEAD TO VIBRATION AND GROOVE CRACKING. EXTENDED USE COULD LEAD TO TREAD DISTORTION OR TREAD SEPARATION AND LOSS OF VEHICLE CONTROL.

Remedy:

BATO WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE AFFECTED TIRES FREE OF CHARGE. BATO WILL ALSO MOUNT AND BALANCE THE REPLACEMENT TIRES, ALL AT NO CHARGE OR EXPENSE TO THE OWNER. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR ABOUT JUNE 29, 2009. OWNERS MAY CONTACT BATO TOLL-FREE AT 1-800-465-1904 OR VISIT THEIR WEBSITE AT Firestone Tire.

Sammy Man: you are right.

The media loves a good man-bites-dog story. The disinformation is astounding. We all look at this a car guys. Imagine what Jane Q. Public thinks??

Then you have the lawyers lining up. Not just for claims for actual accidents - but "damages" and class action suits..

The thing that was never stated publicly was that Ford specifically requested the thinner tires to keep the unsprung weight down and improve handling. Firestone had protested, but Ford threatened to pull their contract with Firestone if they did not comply. When the controversy errupted, Firestone had been told by Ford to blame the problems on the tires being underinflated and Ford would back them up. Firestone did as they were told, and Jacques Nassar double-crossed them and blamed them instead. Firestone then came out with the information that Ford had spec'ed the crappy tires, but no one was listening at that point as Firestone had been declared the bad guy.

Should Firestone have come out with the lame tire pressure excuse? No, but they did have Ford threatening them if they didn't. This whole episode also lead directly to Nassar being fired from Ford, as the board did not like his secretive and manipulative handling of the situation.

Until they over heated and burst into flames like what happened to the cop.

I will say that I have personally had a floor mat jamb under the bottom edge of a gas pedal, not letting the accelerator return to idle. One swift kick fixed the problem.

There have been deaths AFTER Toyota told owners to remove the floor mats. In fact, there was recently a Toyota Avalon in Texas that ended up in a pond, upside down, all four occupants dead, floor mats still in the trunk. If you'd like more details, let me know.

Toyota covered up the problem, even (allegedly, but more details are forthcoming) bribing a NHTSA official by giving him a job paying three times 'normal' when these problems started surfacing several years ago. If you'd like more details, let me know.

Toyota has done nothing it was not legally obligated to do. Name one.

Hmmmm....the Woz says it's a software problem:

Wozniak cites 'scary' Prius acceleration problem | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News

the floor mat in my '06 tundra has a plastic hook mounted on the carpet that matches up to a hole in the floormat which then keeps it from sliding out of place. very nicely in fact.

a local guy with a tundra crashed last night and was just on the evening news. says the electrical system went crazy and truck took off forcing him to weave in and out of traffic and eventually off road into the woods knocking down trees

Great, so Toyota is using Windows Vista in their cars?

Official: U.S. had to force Toyota into safety recall | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

WASHINGTON -- U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said today that it had taken "an enormous effort" to get Toyota to recall vehicles in the United States, and said federal regulators were not done with their investigations.

"Since questions were first raised about possible safety defects, we have been pushing Toyota to take measures to protect consumers," LaHood said in a statement. "While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point."

"We're not finished with Toyota and are continuing to review possible defects and monitor the implementation of the recalls."

LaHood told the Associated Press in an interview that Toyota was "a little safety deaf." He said last week that the automaker would not have recalled its vehicles had federal safety officials not pushed for it.

Toyota's top U.S. official, Yoshibi Inaba, is set to testify at a congressional hearing Feb. 10. Toyota also faces another hearing from the investigation subcommittee headed by U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Menominee, on Feb. 25.

Report: After NHTSA investigator hired by Toyota, serious unintended acceleration cases ignored &mdash; Autoblog

The more we learn about Toyota's rumored relationship with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the less we like it. Remember the claim that the government agency may have known about unintended acceleration issues as early as 2004? ABC News does, and the news network has been doing its best Sherlock Holmes work in an effort to learn more about the potentially damaging claims.

The ABC News investigation revealed that NHTSA wrote a memorandum limiting unintended acceleration claims to episodes lasting two seconds or less when the brake was never applied. The report states that the memorandum came down after agency representative Scott Yon met with two former colleagues (including Chris Santucci) who left the government to work for Toyota. Santucci testified back in December that the limited scope of investigations "worked out well for both the agency and Toyota."

Also in question is whether federal safety investigators are included in a federal law that states that "an employee in the executive branch is barred for two years after leaving government service from representing any matter under the employee's previous official responsibility." Santucci left his job at NHTSA six months before he reportedly negotiated the terms of the investigation with his ex-colleagues.

According to ABC News, the limited scope of the investigations ruled out 26 of the original 37 claims of unintended acceleration. A reported 25 of those 26 incidents led to an accident or crash, and since those incidents were outside of the scope of the investigations, NHTSA never looked into the incidents. Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies told ABC News that the narrow scope of the investigation meant "NHTSA almost ensured they wouldn't have enough complaint data to take action."

The extremely limited and nonsensical scope of the investigations between 2004 and 2007 continually failed to show any failures, and Toyota routinely pointed that out when the subject was brought up even in the weeks that led to the original recall of 3.8 million floor mats in the fall of 2009. In fact, ABC News claims that a document provided by Toyota to NHTSA stated that the Japanese automaker would not even submit a report to the government "in which the customer alleged that they could not control a vehicle by applying the brake."