Thanks John.

I've not been a fan of modern cars for a while. Mostly because I thought that they are putting too much electronics into the cars. Things like iDrive, touch screens and such basically put a high cost item into a car that can "total" a car when it fails. When it breaks, it's not worth fixing because the costs exceed the value of the car.

Basically, car manufacturers are making disposable cars, like a bic lighter.

IMO, this just adds to that situation. In 15 years, will you be able to R&R parts on these cars? I doubt it. You certainly couldn't fabricate a replacement part, like that throttle switch.

I don't like this at all.

Really? You can get in a GNX or Challenger, floor the brake pedal and floor the throttle, and drive off? That's quite a trick (of the imagination). If you're talking a true dragster (Funny Car, etc), yes I agree.

On your second point, they've put in safety interlocks in modern cars. In the traditional mechanical key-in-column system, yes you certainly can lock the steering column while driving. I've done it, it scared my pants off.

Dude, i am talking about an ALREADY MOVING CAR.

Not one sitting still. If it was sitting still i would not need to stop to begin with.

Go get in a GTX floor it to 100, keep the pedal down, and try to stop.

Report back from heaven how it went.

And on the key thing, if you had that happen your car was broken.You cannot put a properly functioning automatic in park.

Not for decades.

I was an auto tech, you're just flat out wrong. In fact many of them have manual lockouts as well.

Given the demands on modern car designs, all the electronics are kind of unavoidable.

We want cars that get 30-40 mpg, accelerate to 60 mph faster than the typical V8 did in the 70s, have very low emissions, hold the road better than most sports cars used to do, won't let us lock the brakes, protect us from over steer and under steer, will take a huge impact and protect the occupants, navigate for us, play MP3s and maintain perfect cabin temperature, warm our bottoms, hold our Starbucks, yadda yadda - and be affordable to boot.

How could you do that without electronics? You can't. So, we have huge electronic content in cars.

Doesn't mean that modern cars don't last a decently long time. The average US car right now is 10 years old.

But will today's cars be drivable, restorable, maintainable in 30 years? I guess if the car is worth bothering with and there are enough stocked parts or junked cars to cannibalize parts from, sure. (No, you can't fabricate a replacement airbag sensor or ECU or satnav system in your garage, but, really, how many car parts can you fabricate in your garage?) A 928 is a complex car with quite a bit of electronics, and they are still viable cars today. That vast majority of today's cars, though, won't be on the road in 20 years and you won't care, because you won't want to drive them.

This hysteria about brakes being unable to overpower engines is ridiculous. For a forum of supposed car guys, it is shameful to be so ill-informed.

Car And Driver:

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

Didn't work for the state trooper in REAL WORLD conditions, did it Jyl?

If only Car and Driver had been driving that car that day, all those people wouldn't be dead....

From accounts of the State Trooper incident the brakes (at least the rears) were 'smoking and flaming' from brake application.

If it were your conscious goal to bring the car to a complete and immediate stop, one swift forceful pedal application SHOULD bring any car to a hault, even full throttle, even downhill.

Without knowing what was going through the driver's thoughts, I can see where one would hope that whatever issues were occuring with the car would be temporary. So, you'd stab at the gas pedal hoping it would return, push at the 'stop' button hoping to turn off the engine, move the transmission selector, etc. Meanwhile you are navigating the streets and you'd be appying the brake pedal as needs arise, eventually trying to brake the car, but releasing and re-applying throughout the incident (I would guess).

Maybe that application and re-application allowed enough heat-build-up to heat-soak the brakes and cause enough fade that the brakes would no longer overpower the engine.

Those who have driven street cars on the track can tell you it's possible.

Even Car and Driver stuffed a new 370Z Nismo into the armco at VIR due to 'failed' brakes. And I'm quite certain Lexus wouldn't have chosen brake pad formulation suited for the track. More likely chosen for noise, longevity, and smooth feel.

Didn't Todd (nostatic) have that issue with is Subie at the track?

I'm pretty sure most people would just stand on the brake if they realized they had a stuck throttle and the car wouldn't turn off.

This guy apparently braked so much his linings caught on fire. Clearly the brakes were inadequate to the task.

Hopefully this cop's family will receive the largest lawsuit reward of all time. Toyota should be absolutely bankrupted for allowing cars to be put on the street that cannot be readily shutdown IMMEDIATELY in an emergency.

If you keep braking the car against a WOT throttle, then letting it accelerate, and braking again, then let it accelerate again, without ever shutting the car off (press and hold button) or putting it in neutral (push stick), eventually your brakes will fade away. That accident developed over a long time - long enough to call 911 and have a conversation - and it seems to me the driver just never gathered his wits enough to operate the necessary controls.

This morning's radio news said Toyata Prius models are experiencing brake failure. Hmmm, I didn't know they needed brakes.

Right...a cop.

Who had the forethought to call 911.

Couldn't think to put the car in neutral. Oh wait, the Toyota doesn't care...keeps going

Couldn't think to hit the off button. Oh right, it has to be held for 3 full seconds. Who would know this unless specifically told? Is your answer really RTM?

Couldn't think to stand on the brakes as soon as the car couldn't stop. Right....a cop couldn't figure this out. Right. Yeah.

It stretches belief beyond all credibility that a cop couldn't get a car to stop by standing on the brakes if it was capable.

I hope Toyota gets HAMMERED by this dead cop's family.

I think kaisen's take on it makes more sense.

The driver notices the throttle isn't releasing, he pokes at the brake and slows the car down, then pokes at the throttle and maybe gets it stuck even deeper, uses the brakes again, muddles around wondering what is going on, the longer he futzes with it the hotter his brakes get, this goes on for some time - long enough for his passengers to get scared, call 911, have a conversation with the dispatcher - for some reason he doesn't figure out how to shift to neutral or turn off the power, by now his brakes are faded away.

I suspect he never "stood on the brakes" until it was too late.

Yes, even a police officer could make such a mistake. From your prior posts about the police, I wouldn't have thought you'd be surprised that police officers can do boneheaded things.

Cops get advanced driving courses. The average cop is a far better driver than the average citizen.

That is an issue totally separate to cops over reacting and beating people up.

I do not buy for one second that he didn't try a "panic stop" early in the ordeal.

Ahhh. A little levity is good. :)

I too am leaning towards siding with Kaisen. I don't know the details on the cop, so I won't comment. I still believe a panic stop would work. I could be wrong. Hope I never find out. My 911 stuck throttle caused an over-rev and a bent valve. (Both the stuck throttle and the rebuild were my fault)

My 2001 Jetta (diesel) shuts off the throttle when you hit the brakes. Sounds like something Toyota might want to think about re-flashing onto their cars. Aside from drives who use two feet, I can't see a downside.

Found this:

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Sherwood

Anytime I have raced, my throttle is all out, I use the brakes to control speed rather then the go-pedel. I guess it it may be one reason I won't get rich racing!

This guy may be onto something? I don't buy that the more severe cases are from pedal assemblies or floor mats:

Toyota Recall: Electronic Design Flaw Linked to Toyota Runaway Acceleration Problems, Expert Says - ABC News

George

I'd have to see what he did to the circuit to induce WOT. He could have simply shorted the throttle position sensor (TPS) so the ECU thinks the driver wants full throttle or something equivalent but not likely to happen. Dunno. Otherwise, the good professor is telling us what's obvious. For example, No DTCs of unintended WOT (there is for normal WOT). Why would there be? It'd be like wondering why there isn't a trouble code for a broken brake pedal.

Sherwood

Agreed, Sherwood, it isn't clear what he did to trigger the WOT condition and there is no reason to leave out that information. I would like to see what the modifications are he does and also what the results are if they are applied to other automatker's systems.

One thing is for sure - if you don't build such a system with belts and suspenders, it may get away from you - no pun intended.

George

So does Sniper hate Toyotas more than he hates cops?:p

The above is totally concievable. The cop made more than one bad decision leading up to the accident. For example, why in the hell would you call 911? What can they possibly do to help, call OnStar? Luxury car brakes and brake pad compounds are not made for continuous high temperature use, it likely wouldn't take long for them to start fading. Based on a number of different tests the brakes are capable of easily overcoming the engine, so it's obvious he didn't try that approach. I'm not trying to justify the Toyota problem, only stating that the car could have been stopped.

It's easy for us all to throw stones, but obviously the guy paniced. Snipe, you keep throwing out the advanced driving courses, but we're not talking about Michael Schumacher here either. Cops receive advanced training, that's true, but it's not as advanced as a weekend at most any racing school. I'd bet money that the average weekend racer is a better driver than the average cop. Case in point, even in a small city like Wichita we occasionally have cops crash their cars while responding to calls.

Don't forget that on some of these Toyotas, you cannot shift into neutral if the engine is revving much higher than idle.

Sure, let's insist that a dead cop is an idiot and cannot figure out how to stop a vehicle in an emergency instead of just admitting to ourselves that his Lexus flat out killed him.

Oh well, at least Legion isn't drinking el Lexusade.

What...you mean this problem isn't all just in a few biased individuals heads?

It's amazing how stupid people are willing to make themselves look all so that they can remain in denial.

Wife reading morning news paper, "Dear, Toyotas have killed 28 people to date with stuck throttles, they've covered it up for 7 years, and now they have 7 ongoing recalls!"

Husband, "Bah, i'm sure it's just a witch hunt by Sniper."

The title of this post is: How did a single part made by a single supplier screw the world's biggest automaker?

The answer is: it didn't. Toyota did.

There are plenty of Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers that supply parts to one or many of the automotive manufacturers. They all have criteria that must be met to be awarded the business. Toyota has a very good process for approving vendors. Their criteria to meet there requirements are very detailed, better than most. As demanding as they are, they are fair and reasonable. Any supplier cannot change the process, location or substitute materials w/o the approval of Toyota. Parts are submitted for testing and approval. In the event of a material change, testing occurs not only in the lab but in the field. A supplier can lose business if they make a change w/o approval. No one will do that because there is business to lose. All suppliers are graded and when incidents occur, a corrective action plan and remediation must take place.

Making quality parts doesn't compensate for bad design, or designs that cost cut. Or demanding suppliers to cut cost 5% per year every year during the contact.

Toyota got sloppy; they are no different than Ford, GM, et all. Cost cutting, market share, profit is the name of the game. They deserve to pay or are they to big to fail?

If a true, unbiased investigation was possible, I am confident that all OEM's would be found guilty of the very thing Toyota is being charged with by the public media. It just seems pretty vogue to trash Nippon and Asia. Maybe it takes the heat off of the Big 3?

I am sure that they knew more than they say and I am also confident that a Policeman et al are not idiots that cannot drive. I am a student of failure and I do know that the more complicated a system is, the more opportunities there are for failures to occur.

Cars are ridiculous complicated machines with hundreds of thousands of opportunities for failures. You combine that with the opportunity for weather, other drivers and ones own ability or lack there of...its amazing any of us make it to work or home!

Lubemaster: If this is being tried in the media, explain the accidents / complaints going back for several years. Explain why State Farm Insurance complained about this. Explain why Toyota tried to pin this on an American supplier when their Japanese supplier wasn't included. Explain the lame excuse of floor mats.

The media, the government having a hand in this; that's a bunch of crap. I recall the Ford / Firestone recall. I blame Ford for most of that problem. They cost cut to a point where compromises were made. I work for a Tier 1 supplier most of us felt Ford was responsible. Suppliers don't build what they want to; they build to the OEs specifications subject to their approval.

I love the politicians now trying to protect their automotive manufacturing base because of this issue. Didn't work in the rust belt because we were to busy bashing unions. That's Kama for ya.

The Toyota recall is now global.