Yes, definitely. Is that a $500 second pistol or a $1500 second pistol?

I'm in lust with the Dan Wesson CBOB in 10mm.

So you're saying that you have to squeeze the grip to activate the trigger?

Wow...no one would ever squeeze the grip on a handgun, especially under duress.

Or, if you only had one, maybe...
http://www.e-gun.net/userGuns/format...2RightSide.jpg
...a Desert Eagle 50 caliber.

Interesting, this photo was posted by a guy named PorscheTech911. I wonder if it's someone around here. :D

I have had several situations where i have held people at gunpoint, where i would have felt better with a laser. What's more, i can foresee many situations beyond the ones that i've experienced where i'd want one.

Lasers are pretty much standard issue now in the US Army infantry. Every swinging dick in the field has one on their M-4. The technology ship seems to have sailed without you my friend!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rbine_Iraq.jpg
US Infantryman with M-4 equipped with M68 Aimpoint electronic sight, BUIS, and PEQ-2A multimode day/night/IR laser sight/designator/boresighter.

Here is my civvie AR. Same setup, but i have about $1000 less invested in optics. I don't need to parachute into any swamps, crawl through the dirt all night while banging my sights into rocks in a monsoon and still have all my optics work...so i can save a lot of money. I still want to add a BUIS though.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...s/DSC00761.jpg
You can see the pressure switch for the laser embedded into the forearm rubber just to the rear of the thumb activated flashlight.
(I'm lefthanded) The laser is a Laserlyte red laser, the electronic sight is a Walther PS-55.

Lol!

I have 30 years of statistics backin' me up here (remember the P7 was used by dozens of LEO agencies- no cop has ever had his own P7 used against him- ever. MANY cops have been shot with their own un-saftied revolvers, Glocks and Sigs. None with P7's. You decide why!). Have you ever even held a P7?

Perhaps you should, before you act so skeptical? :)

Or should i post some articles from gun eggsburts that repeat the points i've been making here, for your benefit? :-P

Excerpt from American Handgunner, Author Masaad Ayoob:

In the Midwest, a gun shop owner was disarmed of his HK P7 and herded into a back room of the shop, where he was certain the two robbers would execute him. He grabbed a concealed S&W .357 Magnum revolver and spun on the man who was leading him to his death at gunpoint. The robber pulled the trigger of the German squeeze-cocker pistol, but nothing happened. The storeowner began pulling his own trigger. Sometimes his revolver just went "click," and sometimes it roared with Magnum force. The first man fell. The gun dealer kept pulling the trigger, now engaging the second perpetrator, until the man fell dead.

Lessons: The unique design of the HK P7 pistol requires the cocking lever on the front of its grip-frame be firmly depressed for the pistol to fire. Thankfully, the bad guy in this case wasn't holding it firmly enough, and was unable to carry out his murderous intent before the good guy killed him and his equally homicidal partner in crime. The revolver had been in perfect working order except for having been fitted with lighter-than-factory springs in hopes of gaining an easier trigger pull. Fortunately, the good guy's many pulls of the trigger yielded enough successful primer ignitions to win the fight. It can be a life saver to have a gun that is "proprietary to the user," that is, which the legitimate user knows how to swiftly bring into action, and a punk who grabs the gun probably does not. Moreover, the light trigger pulls desired by target shooters can, and often do, compromise the reliability so desperately needed in a true defensive weapon.

In the Southwest, a well-intentioned good guy who was apparently a little ambivalent about his choice, decided to carry a gun. He purchased a Glock 23 and kept it in a fanny pack, loaded with a magazine of .40 S&W training ammunition but with nothing in the chamber.

The day came when he was faced with armed robbers. He grabbed the Glock out of the fanny pack and tried to chamber a round. but fumbled with the slide and jammed his pistol. The robbers shot him down. He survived--and sued Glock, Incorporated.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/

------------------

There you go, a REAL WORLD incident of a man who is not dead because his primary firearm was a P7. In this incident, if the Law abiding citizen is carrying a Glock, a Sig, or a revolver....he's dead.

People just don't squeeze the FRONT of the gripframe that firmly as a natural instinct (most pressure is applied to the grip panels in a typical handhold). It takes a deliberate amount of force -26lbs- to activate the single action mechanism of the P7. IOW, you have to know to do it.

The robber in the above story did not know...and now he's dead, and the owner of the P7 is not.

You may also want to check out Hk USPs or P30s. I've had a USP40 since 1998 and love it.

LOL, most of those guys are using the IR laser not "illuminating rooms and blinding attackers". I think you fell off the tactics ship and hit your head on the way down.

Yeah, maybe.

Or maybe you did.

Or perhaps it's a matter of two people having disparate, yet informed opinions.

Take your pick. :)

Informed as in a career as a repo man and process server? Or do you surf the web for the latest tactics and weapons? :confused: I'm not going to post my resume here for security reasons but believe me you don't want to go there.

I guess my time as an infantryman doesn't count as experience? Hmmm...ok?

Nice of you to knock my real world street experience...have you ever worked in any Ghettos like we have here in North or West Philly? Or Chester? Philadelphia is statistically more dangerous for some of the cities demographics than Baghdad was during the height of the insurgency.
We had close to 700 murders here last year. I work all the most dangerous areas. I'm on comp because i got ran over in a ag. assault. It's not the first time i've been hit by a fleeing car.

I've been chased down the street in reverse by 30 bat wielding puerto ricans pounding on the doors and hood of the car i just repoed in broad daylight from right in front of their house. No back up but one other guy. No radio, no other help. Why don't you try that kind of excitement and tell me that it does not count as real world experience....

We went into places during Operation Sunrise that the cops would not even follow us into. Me, a 5'7" white boy in some of the most violent neighborhoods in America (i have always used a partner, no tow truck- we drive all the cars). But, scoff if you will, anonymous internet poster. You are right. What i do is not dangerous, not at all. And let me tell you, being a 5'7" white boy and serving subpoenas to the 20th floor of the old Girard towers housing projects, stepping over crack heads in the stairwells on the way up...alone...nah, that's not dangerous at all.

You know i have talked with a lot of various types in person and on various sites, all of whom did post their creds, who favor lasers (and certainly- many who did not). Dad was a cop, my first repo partner is a cop. They both like lasers. I guess we just didn't get the same high speed low drag training in super awesome school as you did. I guess our Infantrymen still don't get it, cause they all use lasers too.

I think you're just going to have to deal with the fact that there are varying opinions.

M'kay? :)

At any rate, this entire laser thing is a tangent, and i believe we've both said our piece, so.....

I recommend any quality .22 pistol with a manual safety (or revolver) as 1st choice. 2nd choice....HK P7. Beyond that, any quality pistol with a safety that fits your hand well and inspires confidence. ;)

I love my Glock, real simple and easy to use

I would own this glock without hesitation:

http://www.premierarms.com/images/Co...locksafety.jpg
(well, as long as the safety lever is on both sides)

From the ad:

GLOCK® GMSK--MANUAL SAFETY KIT

FITS ALL GLOCK® PISTOLS (M- 36 available soon)

* *SPECIAL FEATURES* *

· ERGONOMICALLY DESIGNED AND LOCATED

· POSITIVE ENGAGEMENT AND DISENGAGEMENT

· WITH MANUAL SAFETY ENGAGED, ALL THREE GLOCK® PASSIVE SAFETIES ARE LOCKED IN PLACE

· PISTOL CAN BE LOADED AND UNLOADED WITH MANUAL SAFETY ENGAGED, THUS DIMINISHING THE CHANCE OF AN UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE

· LONG WEARING STAINLESS STEEL, HARD CHROME PLATED PARTS

WITH MATT BLACK TACTICAL FINISH

Google Image Result for http://www.premierarms.com/images/Copy%20of%20glocksafety.jpg

Glocks already have 3 safeties, no need for another one. Unless one does not know trigger discipline.

Or one is a felon that just took your gun, or a kid gets it, or you bump into something in the dark while clearing your house at 3 am, knocking your trigger finger off the frame and onto the light, short trigger, or the light short trigger gets snagged in underbrush, or you are just plain human...and make mistakes.

Hey, but if you're perfect, you can just carry a cocked 1911 with the thumb safety disabled. It still has 2 other safeties.... ;)

A glock is a weapon made so simple that a toddler can use it. Not really a design feature i find desirable in a weapon when there are so many other equally good if not better alternatives that a 1 yo child or felon cannot readily fire.

If someone insists on a pistol with no safety a Sig Sauer is a much better choice (for a rightie) anyway. :)

Isn't it amazing how glock owners all tout their superior trigger discipline, yet the design leads all others in AD rates to the point that people came up with the derogatory term "Glock Leg" (TM) to coin the phenomenon?

"I don't need a safety! My safety is between my ears!" BOOM!!! AH, MY LEG!!!! ;)

Why on earth would you, as a cop (or really anyone), want a gun that if a perp gets it off of you, there is NO WAY they wont be able to easily shoot you with it, no matter how ignorant, uneducated and intoxicated they are? Please do explain....lol.

Can you tell me....how many cops have been murdered with their own glocks?

More Massaad Ayoob:

"On a more modern note, S&W has taken the frame-mounted manual safety they put on their .45 ACP M&P awhile back for the military contract that evaporated, and this year added it as an option for all sizes and all calibers. This option is, if I may quote Martha Stewart in a gun magazine, "a good thing." We are still seeing cops killed with their own guns, after being disarmed by perpetrators, and the manual safety is one oft-proven safeguard against that."

Let me repeat that for you ociffer:

We are still seeing cops killed with their own guns, after being disarmed by perpetrators, and the manual safety is one oft-proven safeguard against that."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877351/?tag=content;col1

BTW: Massad Ayoob is a cop

Would it be better if you had to squeeze the grip with exactly 26lbs of pressure to make it shoot?

Why sir, are you mocking me? :D

LOL

How many little kids can exert 26lbs of force if they get their hands on a gun they shouldn't?

Didn't i just post an article where the P7 saved a man's life because mr. perp couldnt make it work?

Should i post some articles where mr. perp DID make mr. Glock work and blew mr. cop to hell? (OK, they're sure not hard to find, see next 2 posts)

Damn safety devices, i bet you use your saber saw with the guards and safeties removed too. ;)

We are still seeing cops killed with their own guns, after being disarmed by perpetrators, and the manual safety is one oft-proven safeguard against that."
~Officer Masad Ayoob

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877351/?tag=content;col1

ON COPS EXECUTED BY THEIR OWN SIDEARMS:

New York City Police Detectives Robert Parker and Patrick Rafferty were shot
and killed in East Flatbush on September 10th (2004), allegedly after a suspect, Marlon Legere, 28, grabbed Parker’s gun and used it to shoot both detectives several times at close range. (NYPD USES GLOCKS)

It is a scenario that, while not commonplace, happens with enough frequency to alarm law enforcement professionals nationwide. Last year, 10 police officers were shot and killed in the United States after a suspect managed to get control of an officer’s weapon. Nearly one in five officers killed as part of a crime last year were shot with their own (or a partner’s) weapon, according to the National Center for Law Enforcement Technology - the highest number of such deaths in 18 years.

Police Killed With Their Own Guns (Gotham Gazette, Sep 2004)

F that, i am smart enough to use a safety. They save lives, it's that simple.

More from the same article:

Even with substantial training, however, the danger is always present. To further protect officers, safety holsters – gun holders with a variety of mechanisms to help “lock” a gun in place – began to be developed in the 1970s. However there are trade-offs: Features that make it more difficult to disarm an officer can also slow down an officer’s ability to draw.

And while uniformed patrol officers in New York routinely wear such safety holsters, plain-clothes detectives wear holsters that are easier to conceal. Police say Parker was wearing an off-duty hip holster, which typically does not have safety features. Neither Parker nor Rafferty were wearing bulletproof vests when they were shot.

I am sure they both felt their safety was between their ears too. Obviously both of them were too smart to use the proper safety equipment- vests and retention holsters (let alone a manual safety).

Now both of them are dead. Just 2 more dead Glock users--- murdered with their own firearms.

New Orleans Police officer murdered with her own Glock:

NEW ORLEANS — A vagrant wanted for questioning in a rape overpowered a 24-year-old police officer who was trying to handcuff him, then shot her to death with her own weapon Monday, police said. (NOPD issues Glocks)

New Orleans Female Police Officer Killed With Own Gun While Arresting Rape Suspect - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Honestly, i could post these stories all night long. Seriously. I could. You lose your gun and it has no safety, you're well and truly fked.

Now i invite you to find a single story- just one- of a cop armed with a P7 ever being shot by his own gun after being disarmed. Ever- in 3 decades service in several continents and countries and dozens of departments. Find me just one story.

What i just found in a 5 second google search is this:

Heckler & Koch P7M13 vs. Glock 19.? - Yahoo! Answers

Apr 8, 2007 ... According to (Officer) M. Ayoob, no police officer has ever been shot with his own H&K P7 pistol

cop shot with his own P7 - Google Search

Safeties save lives. They save citizens lives, they save kids lives, they save soldiers lives, and they save cops lives.

I should do some research on the web and find out just how many cops have been killed by their own Glock or other non-manual safety equipped sidearm. Not even including revolvers, just in the modern automatic era. I bet it's dozens.

I'm giving good solid, well researched advice here. I am not making this crap up. I have a P7 for reasons far beyond it looking cool.

But hey, perhaps coming from the mouth of a cop it will hold more weight:

"In the mid 1990's, in Detroit and NYC cops shot themselves in alarming numbers with their newly issued Glocks. So many that local Emergency Rooms and Paramedics coined the name for this affliction..."Glock Leg!" A good number of these "victims" sued Glock, and received settlements in secret from Glock. In 8 years, more than 50 lawsuits were settled, with confidentiality agreements being signed by the involved parties.

In Washington DC, nearly 75 percent of the District officers who used their weapons did not meet basic firearms standards for using the Glock semiautomatic handgun, a weapon that requires a high degree of training and skill. There have been more than 120 unintentional discharges of the gun in the past decade (in DC alone!); 19 officers have shot themselves or other officers accidentally."

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/non-xd-handguns/51469-cop-glock-often-his-own-worse-enemy.html

The evidence is overwhelming when it comes to Glocks and cops propensity to shoot themselves and others with them. All one has to do is not simply pretend the evidence doesn't exist.

(in 3 decades in service there were only something like 8 total reported AD's with P7s in police hands that resulted in injury. 8, vs potentially hundreds, if not thousands with Glocks. Yeah....)

Here's a great quote from some gun forum i was just browsing:

"Since human beings commonly make mistakes, the argument that Glocks are perfectly safe provided no one makes a mistake, falls of its own weight."

Well, duh. :)

First thing I do is remove the safety crap from my tools. ;):D