Old windows: renovate or replace?

[djmcmath]

My house was built in 1927, and I believe that most of the windows are original. We've made it through the winter by putting plastic up over the windows*, but a long term solution is obviously in order. So the options:

1 - Renovate the windows. Pull them out, one by one, salvage what's salvageable, replace what isn't, and put in new glass. Clean the counterweight pockets, reattach the counterweight lines. The only real heat loss gain would be in the replacement of the seals. As far as I know, I can't replace the single-pane glass with double-pane glass on this, right?

2 - Replace them. That's expensive, especially if we try to get quality wood windows. Because each window is a little different size, each one will either have to be custom made or I'll have to modify the framing for each one. That's a hassle. But it'd be modern frames that would probably last 20 years, and I could get more efficient glass.

So ... is double-pane glass worth it? Has anyone here done the window-renovation process, and can you speak to the time investment involved? What other options have I missed?


Thanks,
Dan




*The "plastic over the windows" was actually a pretty innovative solution that a friend of mine suggested. We bought window-covering clear plastic -- basically saran wrap -- and put it on custom wood frames made out of 1x2s. It sounds a little chintzy -- and it is -- but the difference in airflow through the windows was distinctly noticeable.

[Embraer]

Yep...i've used Visqueen in my house over the old windows.

My house was built in 1909 and also suffered from the drafty windows. I've replaced about 75 percent of the windows with Pella double pane...all of the upstairs windows replaced first (greatest source of heat being released) as well as made sure the attic was properly insulated.

I'm glad I replaced the windows...because it's really a losing battle trying to insulate and seal the old windows

Hopefully Ill get the remainder done this summer.

[Scott Douglas]

Dan
What a timely post as we just had our windows retro-fit with dual pane.
I don't know if it's a standard practice, but when my sister and her husband restored their Iowa farm house windows they put some PVC pipe in the weight pockets for the weights to slide in. Guess it helps keep them from getting hung up on things in the pocket.

[djmcmath]

Retro-fit with dual pane? How'd that work out? I mean, did they do it themselves, after having found someone who'd make custom-sized dual pane lights? Or was that all done by a pro? Do you know if the wood was modified to make it work, or were they able to just put new glass in using the old slots?

I like the PVC idea -- seems like a really good way to keep crud out of the counterweight slot. Thanks for the tip.

[Scott Douglas]

Sorry to have confused you.
I had our house retro-fitted with vinyl dual panes.
I don't think my sister and her husband did dual panes. I think they stripped and refinished the wood, kept the old glass (something about saggy glass - from old age) and reinstalled them. No dual pane which I think you're right, would be pricey indeed. They did do the PVC though. It also makes the window a lot quieter to operate since the weight isn't knocking around as it goes up and down.
Good luck with your quest. I can already sense the change in our house with our new windows and since it's about 70 degrees out at 7:30 tonight they haven't been shut yet.
Gotta love those Santa Ana winds.

[Talewinds]

We just did it in October. We tried to maintain some of that history by leaving the 1873 wavy glass on the front facade of the house after I replaced some cracked panes, glaze, paint.
But we had 23 other windows replaced with the dual pane argon yada yada, the window company was able to replicate the non-standard single vertical center mullion in the 82X30 windows.
That's 393sq ft of thin, brittle, single pane glass and VERY drafty sashes replaced. Needless to say we did have considerable lower gas bills this year, even though we had much lower average temperatures. Throw in the tax credit and it was worth it.

[cbush]

You can get dual pane window glass made to order. We had a large fixed bay window in the front of our house that had single pane glass (about 20 separate 15X15 panes). We had dual pane glass made to fit, and replaced the window panes. Only difference is the window molding moved out 1/4 inch. We were able to get rid of the ugly storm windows, and it made a HUGE difference keeping the cold out. Look at the frame of your window, and see if it is wide enough to accept a 3X thicker glass. It would be a lot of work, and the dual pane glass is not cheap- but you could keep your original window frames, solve draft/condensation problems with single panes, and it would still be way less than crappy new windows. By the way, the first couple windows take a while, but you get pretty fast after that. We were able to re-use the wooden trim for reinstalling the window panes. We used silicone to help seal around the glass, and hold it in tight.

[look 171]

Depend on the size of the pocket for the glass on the sash. Talk to your local glass co. to see if they can get you a dual pane glass with the oveall thickness to be no more then 1/4". It might help with insulation, but i am not sure how much. Putty over it and paint. I have done it before.

[peppy]

My wife and I are going to replace the existing windows in our home (1935?). All of them will have to be custom made, but we will eliminate the original window and the storm window.

Reasons for us:

1. quieter (son has hearing aids)
2. energy efficient
3. easier to clean (tilt in sashes and solid piece of glass)
4. $1500 tax credit


If you retrofit double pane glass, will it fog up?

[HardDrive]

Replace.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by peppy

My wife and I are going to replace the existing windows in our home (1935?). All of them will have to be custom made, but we will eliminate the original window and the storm window.

Reasons for us:

1. quieter (son has hearing aids)
2. energy efficient
3. easier to clean (tilt in sashes and solid piece of glass)
4. $1500 tax credit


If you retrofit double pane glass, will it fog up?

water will or can get inside between the glass. This happens all the time. Buy quality and pay the difference. Many Companies now have life time on em'.

[cbush]

If you retrofit with double pane glass it should not fog up- but as Look 171 said- use a quality company to purchase your glass.

[Bill Douglas]

The house I live in had thin glass in the windows so I removed that and used a router (one of these things)

to make a deeper rebate in the sash so the much thicker glass could fit in. You can do it deep enough for double glazed. Once I had the thicker glass in it cut down road noise by about 75%. I used small stainless nails to hold it in place then a silicon type product to water proof it. Much less drama (and money) than getting replacement sashes and frames.

[djmcmath]

The wife also makes some points for replacement over renovation: modern windows are hinged for easy cleaning, have modern latching hardware (she wants two latches, not just one), and come with two lifting handles (ours has just one little handle). I'm pretty sure I can swap out latch and handle hardware, but I don't think I can make 80 year old windows swing for easy cleaning.

That said, I'd feel like I was giving up if I just went out and bought new windows. I'd feel a lot better at least attempting one or two before going down that route.


Routing out bigger rabbets is a great idea. I'm 90% sure that my existing rabbets aren't big enough to take much thicker glass. I've got a box of glaziers points (which are really just tiny steel nails), and tubes of white silicon sealant are easy to come by. I'll have to pry the trim off to get to the counterweight slots, but (fingers crossed) it's quite likely that the counterweights are still there.

Any recommendations on sash sealing? How do you keep the air from getting in around the sash, or from between the sashes?

Thanks,
Dan

[GWN7]

There are companys that make retro refit windows to fit the old style sashes like you have. They look like the old style windows but have modern R values. Saw a episode on "This Old House" about them.

But saying that, compleat new windows offer a far greater R value. You do away with the sash pockets (open void) and have a better seal/fit in the openings at a lower replacement cost.

It's like driving a 1927 car across the country......yes you can do it but it's a much nicer trip in a 2010 model.

E coated, argon filled, tripple glazed beats single diamond glass anytime.