I would argue that turning a bicycle and turning a motorcycle are two completely different things. With I bicycle, you lean and the bike follows. With a motorcycle, you lean the bike (which weighs more than you do) and you follow.

I disagree. Both use countersteering, and the physics are very similar other than the weight differences.

I found it to be a completely different motion between my mountain bike and my cruiser. YMMV.

I'm with nostatic. Countersteering works on bicycles and motorbikes, alike.

From the article Todd posted:

This is exactly what I was talking about. As a kid, I most often rode my bicycle sitting upright without touching the handlebars. I learned to steer by leaning alone. That doesn't work at all on a motorcycle. Countersteering on a motorcycle causes the motorcycle to lean first. I've never tried countersteering on a bicycle (that I know of).

Perhaps I should clarify: countersteering works on bicycles, as it does on motorcycles. I speak from personal experience.

Countersteering works on both but is not the most effective way to turn a bicycle. The physics does work, but the rate at which a bicycle can turn because of how light it is can be shockingly quick. I don't recommend it except for VERY low speed. It's okay on a lighter motorcycle. It's virtually a necessity on a big, heavy pig of a motorcycle like a Harley or other big cruiser type.

Anyway - a moped is like a fat chick. Yeah, they can be fun to ride and good for a thrill occasionally, but don't let your friends catch you on one!

You did it, just didn't realize it. If you race a bicyle, you most certainly do it.

Next time you ride with no hands, lean and watch what the bars do.

For all you motorcycle countersteering naysayers;)

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Again, I'm with Todd. I've countersteered on bicycles at around 20 mph before. It's like skiing; the faster you're going, the lighter and gentler you are on the control inputs. The underlying principles are still the same. I would argue that the faster you're going, pedal bike or motorbike, the more effective is countersteering.

One of the motorcycle racing schools welded up a bike so that the steering head could be locked straight ahead. Their point was that no matter how much you leaned, without turning the handlebars (countersteering), you could not turn the bike.

Why wouldn't that be the same for a bicycle? If you were to weld the steering stem straight ahead on a bike, would you be able to turn it just by leaning? Why would the physics between riding a bicycle versus a motorcycle be so different from one another?

1st soldier: What? A swallow carrying a coconut?
King Arthur: It could grip it by the husk!
1st soldier: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
King Arthur: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?
1st soldier: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Seems that relative mass of rider and machine should influence the behaviour. Whenever the contact patch of the front tire is behind the steering axis, leaning the machine to the right will tend to steer the front wheel to the right. The greater the weight on the front wheel, the greater this force. (The frame geometry matters too.). The gyroscopic action of the front wheel will try to resist this steering. The greater the mass of the spinning wheel and the higher the rate of spin (I.e. the greater the angular momentum) the more the wheel will resist being steered. On a bicycle, the front wheel has mass of 1 lb and is spinning slowly, so not much resistance to steering, while the rider's mass places let's say 80 lb of weight on the front wheel. On a motorcycle, the front wheel has a mass of 10 lb and is spinning faster (since motorcycle are usually going faster), while the weight on the front is let's say 300 lb. It looks like the ratio of steering force to gyroscopic resistance would be higher for the bicycle. If true then the bicycle's front wheel would be more easily steered by leaning. Kind of a good high school physics problem, reduce everything down to net torque on the steering tube and compare.

When you countersteer, you don't just lean.

For a left turn, to countersteer, you lean and actually turn very, very slightly to the RIGHT.

Works on a bike and a BIKE.

I've heard it said that with a bicycle, one steers with their hips. This must have something to do with placement of body weight and lean. I could perceive much of the same with a motorcycle, only the motorcycle can be steered in the same way, but this has to be done at a much higher speed because the motorcycle is heavier.

Hijacked?
 

"Been thinking about a first motorcycle, or maybe something like an aprilia city scooter."

BUY A PRE-OWNED JAPANESE BIKE 600cc OR SMALLER. $2,000.00 OR LESS. PLENTY AROUND IN THIS DEPRESSION. INSURE IT. RIDE IT. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEFT. DON'T WASH OR WAX IT. AFTER A YEAR, YOU'LL KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

If you can find one get a Suzuki Bandit 400. They should go for less than $2000 and being a major Japanese brand should be cheap to maintain.

Like this one:

1991 Suzuki Bandit 400cc

Get one you can fit on comfortably. I would also not go bold with displacement for a first bike. Check out a place like craigslist... lots of 250-500cc "first bikes" out there for sale. Don't let the small cc or "low hp" fool you, as you can still get to 60mph quicker than most cars. Log a thousand or two miles on a smaller bike before you buy something too big and heavy for your lack of experience.

Hey everyone, thanks for your responses!

Ok, to set the record straight, yes, I have "ridden" bikes before, but never owned one, and never rode legally. That's obviously not the right approach.

Im a husky guy, 5'9 and 200+ lbs.

I will defnately do safety courses, get licensed, etc. I'll probably wear my track helmet and will certainly wear safety gear.

Im not being naive about accidents, I take the porsche to the track and understand the risks, but it's also about minimizing risk.

Long ago I wanted a Suzuki Katana, love the Hurricane as a kid. I'll check out some of the bikes you all mention.

thanks again!!

-Brad

Here's my 15 min commuter.
But then one of the routes I take is through woods and fields.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270854481.jpg

Jeez that bike looks fabulous. Can I ask where the picture is from???

I putted around on an old Honda CB400F as my first street bike but quickly outgrew it. Luckily I got my money back out of it. I then bought a 93 Honda VFR and love it. It's a 750 and while it has plenty of power for me it's not overwhelming. I rode a fuel injected CBR600 and didn't like the throttle action, it seemed too on/off, like my 2 stroke dirt bike. Could have been the particular bike. For me, the first ride on the VFR was it and I was hooked. It's a great commuter, I've taken it to the track and done several hours on longer trips in relative comfort. Older VFR's in great shape can be easily had around $3,000 in my area.

If you can find a 575 Virago its worth a look... Those are good riding little bikes... My 250 and dads 750 were both trouble free bikes....

I looked at a Ducati Monster 696 the other day and they are really nice. Plenty of (but not too much) power and very light. If you dont want to spend much and want to tinker, consider an old Honda CB.

I would +1 on a duel purpose single... I went from a 175cc Honda to a XL500...

The 500 could beat ANY car from 0-60... but could also putt around on dirt roads.

YMMV

PS: I would NOT recommend a 500 thumper for a first bike... it had so much torque if you dropped the clutch at idle it would not stall, it would walk away... and wheelie on command (or sometimes when not expected).

Scott I've got a 250 single that is a torque monster like that... I've really got to be careful... At 130lbs I have a hard time keeping it wrestled down at times....

I got into the biker thing a couple of years ago with an older 400cc Honda. I'd recommend something similar to anyone getting started for a variety of reasons:

1 - The old Honda CM400 is a great starter bike, just in how forgiving it is.
2 - Not a crotch rocket; not enough power to do anything really stupid.
3 - Not terribly underpowered; I can do 0-45 in 6 seconds flat, maybe 7.
4 - Because it's old, I'm not really worried about when I drop it. I know I will eventually fall, and I'd hate to screw up the shiny fairings on my new BMW. This bike's got rust and scrapes all over, so dropping it is no issue at all.
5 - Dirt cheap. I paid $750 for it, which is a great gamble. Had I decided I hated motorcycling, I'm not out that much. Now that I know I kind of like it, I can look for an upgrade.

FWIW, I haven't actually fallen at speed yet, though I've dorked up some low-speed stuff and have dropped it in driveways, intersections, and the like. I'm ready for the fall, though -- I always wear my helmet, full armor, etc. Anyone who thinks they can ride without getting into an accident, ever, is almost certainly fooling themselves.

Enjoy!

Dan