Track days getting pretty expensive
 

I've done track days for a long time (15 years?), but I think I'm getting closer to quitting and building a decent racing simulator rig instead...

My current PCA region now wants $275 for a DE at Sebring these days... Ouch... Don't get me wrong, nice folks, good instructors, great track, but I recall paying $180 or so a couple years back, that's pretty steep inflation...

Have track rental fees gone out the window lately? In my region's case, I have a sneaking suspicion (but could be wrong) that the ratio of instructors to students is pretty high (based on the number I see) and that them paying the reduced rate (a pittance, $80 or less as I recall) has something to do with non-instructors paying through the nose...

I'm not whining about it, I've had fun, but it's getting a little expensive now for 3x35 min sessions... I could become an instructor I suppose but I *hate* being a powerless passenger ;-) I'm going one more time to check out my new-to-me Cayman S and then I'll probably quit (or pay $300 to Chin/Tracquest for a full day session, unlimited track time)

Just curious, is it this bad everywhere now ?

The track fees are just a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the fees associated with putting your car on the track for a regular, run-of-the-mill DE. Consider the following costs:
- Maintenance on the car (and tow vehicle/trailer)
- Oil and gas
- Tires
- Brakes
- Food and lodging
- Tolls and other travel expenses.

Granted, as an instructor, the track fees are less, but I suspect that a typical instructor (who trailers a more-expensive-to-maintain sports car) will wind up paying more for a DE event than a student.

I have gotten involved with some other clubs, and find the single day events to be a little less of a burden on my wallet - I can get up super early, drive to the event on the day of the event, and drive back home at the end of the day. (I can do this with tracks that are less than 3 hours from home, like Pocono, Monticello, and Lime Rock Park).

As an instructor, I appreciate the discount -- some clubs don't charge the instructors any fee. But the day can be a bit hectic as well - I have often had 2 students assigned to me, and there is a commitment to teach. If I have a mechanical issue with my car, that needs to wait if my student is on the grid and ready to go. Still, I find instructing a blast -- you should try it! Oh - and the trick is to be the one in control of the car, even though the steering wheel, brakes and throttle are not infront of you! :)

-Z-man.

The Z-man is spot on. We can do weekday track days at Willow Springs for $150 but that's just the first check you write. No more for me.

Is that $275 for a day, or a weekend?


I don't think the price increase, or amount of increase, is limited to DEs. A couple years ago lunch would cost me less than $7. Now it trends over $10.

Waiting for somebody to point out that hookers & blow cost less...

I agree track days have gotten way more expensive of late, but I wouldn't blame the reduced or free rate given the instructors. Track rental in our area has gone up dramatically, to the point where we have to do track days on weekdays because weekends are prohibitively expensive. I suspect insurance increases also play a big role.

On a typical track day, I get two students to instruct out of four run groups. That means if I drive my own sessions, I run three out of four sessions, 4 times a day, for a total of 12 on-track sessions in a day. When something has to give (if I get dehydrated, for example), I skip one of my sessions--never a student's session. Plus, I always have the added excitement of not knowing if some rookie in a new 911TT is gonna kill me. It's a real possibility--had a roll over a few years back, and have seen several instructors get hurt. One even of killed this year at CMP, I believe.

Don't get me wrong--I love instructing (been at it for 10 years), but I think I earn whatever reduced rate I might get. If I didn't get a break on price, I doubt I or a lot of other guys would do it.

It's an expensive sport!

Not to take this off Deschodt's topic, but is your average instructor someone who wouldn't be showing up if it wasn't for the reduced entry fee? For example someone who usually races but uses the extra track time to test different setups or equipment. You'll have to excuses the ignorance of the question as I haven't done any DE events I'm just interested if that is generally the case.

Our region used to run 1-day DEs for about $70 back in the day. Instructors paid 1/2 or $35. A tank of gas and $35 and I could run a whole track day for less than $75. I went to the track last weekend at an event where instructors get to go for free. I had two students and pretty much worked my butt off, but I still feel a little guilt for not paying anything.

It's all relative, but I remember when a PCA DE at Road Atlanta was $185 for the whole weekend. Even at $300 or whatever it is now, it's worth it. I love track driving!!

I'll probably do one more with my Subie (still bone stock) just because my g/f has never gone at-speed, and that may be it. I never did add up all my receipts, but in 4+ years of tracking my car I burned through probably $60K. So much for a down payment on a house post divorce. But I really don't have any regrets - it was a total *blast* and I met some great people and had some great times.

It's a fair question, but about three quarters of the guys I instruct with don't race. I don't any more, though I used to.

And I don't want to overstate the burden on instructors--we do it because we get a kick out of it, and it's also, I believe, an important way to give back to the P-car community.

Proportionate to your salary vs. mine, I'd say we're on even ground AFA expenses go. I think you met more interesting people than I did, though. :D

Spot on with all the points.

I'd say the ratio in my region is about the same with PCA, and with the other car clubs I've instructed with, there's probably less club racers out there in the instructor groups. I don't club race, though I do plan on jumping into that venue someday...

There are those who club race that use DE's as a means of getting familiar with an unknown track, but they also understand the rules of DE and won't push the boundaries.

Would I show up at a DE and instruct if my fees were the same as a student? Well, it would be less appealing, but that depends on the club, the track, and the level of instruction that is expected of me. Want me to run a couple of sessions with an advanced driver? Sure - I'll pay the same fee. Want me to spend the whole event with 2 green students? I expect they'd throw me a bone and discount my track fee.

To be perfectly honest -- I enjoy instructing -- almost as much as I enjoy driving on the track. There's something very satisfying knowing that you were able to effectively help a driver learn about this craft which everyone thinks they have already mastered. I've taken rides with former students after they have progressed up the ranks -- and it is neat to see how they have progressed, and it is neat to know that I may have had something to do with their progress.

Oh - as for costs -- I estimate my track expenses for a typical 2-day event to be somewhere between $500 and $1000 per event, when I factor in all of the variables. I've heard some of the hardcore folks are probably closer t othe $2000 per 2 day event mark. :eek:

-Z-man.

Z-man,

I've been at this long enough that several guys I had as first time rookie students are now instructors themselves. (Not to mention way better drivers than me.) One such guy was my 22-yo daughter's instructor at a recent event. Talk about karma or something!

Yes, racing the lowly go karts when entries were $30 for race day, I figured 200 for each day, ea kart (we usually had 2).

Now, I'd bet that could be between 500 and a grand per day. Tires are 50 bucks ea.

Nice if you could get p-car tires for 50 skins.

Ihave friends that instruct and they deserve the free entry fee fir what they do all weekend. As mentioned, they can have 2 students and running their car makes a full day. Problem with the car? Fix it between student sessions. Can't fix it? Stay until the end or your students are signed off.

That said, $250-300 for the 2-3 day weekend has been typical. Add in hotel, tow vehicle gas, race gas at $7.50, food, slicks, car expendables and it adds up.

Lets see. A typical track weekend. Entrance fee-$300-350, Hotel-$100 (usually split 2 days), Gas-$300(travel and at the track), Food $100, Wear and Tear (Brakes, Tires, etc) ?? Talking around $800-900 for the weekend. .

And that's if nothing breaks!

hey where else can ya have more fun? i got invited down to INDE in wilcox,az. a private track. gonna cost me $200 for 1 day and $300 for 2 days. plus gas for tow rig/beer/room/food and as i always go out the door saying a prayer "it will cost nothing for the car IF it doesnt break.


it is spendy, its alot of fun, and if you go to alot of races like us and just take pictures.....................sooner or later ya just have to get back in the drivers seat. it never fails.


walking away is hard to do.


i figure it this way for this juan: i was invited, its private, aint gonna be nojuan around to feek me up except me, its wayyyyyyyyyy nicer than PIR and firebird, and its a really well thought out demanding track.


so what the hell, ya only live once. gonna try and take my (2) sons along and go have some fun.

and one other thang. from the last time we went to calif mtr speedway/pir and firebird, i had a bunch of pictures taken of my car(me) that i stuffed in the bat cave.


there is NOTHING better than hearing from somejuan new, with my p-car sitting there, and them looking at the pics asking...................


"IS THAT YOU?" and you just nod yer head real cool, and crack another beer and start bench racing.


"when i was a young lil whippersnapper we used to.......... when we was younger and wez used to race..............blah blah................always good times.



and a hell of alot of memories.

Costs are not all that has changed. When I first started in 89-90 timeframe some of our events were $25 for members and $35 for non-members. If you did not go off the track or lose it at least once during each session you were not trying hard enough.:) Now they have all the 2-3 spins or offs and you go home...period. I do tend to not color outside the lines as much as I used to.

Now the track rental has gone up almost an order of magnitude and the insurance costs are sky high (dang lawyers and insurance compaines, can't we just set up a few situations where we can all choose to accept the risk and cut them out of the loop?)

Oh well, until there is something better I'll keep doing it.

I do enjoy instructing but a weekend would be waaaaay easier to not do it. If I got no discount, I'd probably skip it and focus on my own driving. At the instructor school this last weekend I had another instructor in the car pretending to be a student (a really bad student). Turns out he used to race SCCA and earned himself the nickname "Crash". It was a trial by fire type exercise to prepare instructors for the unexpected. I think instructing is a lot like driving. If you don't do it often enough you start to get rusty.

Try racing. Then the track fees are pretty small compared to everything else you're gonna spend. Figure $2-$3K per weekend for stock-class PCA club racers.

It's gotten noticeably more expensive. Between the tow rig and car, I spent well over $200 last weekend on fuel alone. Plus ~1/3rd of the life of a $1000 set of tires. Entry fees near $300. And, I believe I cooked my clutch.

Earlier this year I had to update my harness belts and helmet too. Beyond that I've spent a boatload on the car in the past year but virtually all that was purely discretionary, and arguably insane.

However, I'm not doing 10-15 events a year anymore -- more like 4-5 if I'm lucky this year -- so it is well worth it for the fun factor in my opinion, as long as the cash flow is there to support it.

Track days are only good if they're on someone else's dime. One of the reason I won't do more than one a year, if that.

Tracking a road car or a road car turned race car is invariably dull after experiencing tracking an open wheel, single seater.

Thankfully I was lucky enough to have had the chance to race karts for some time. After forays into ITS-prepped cars and open wheel cars, I'm still convinced that there is one form of racing that rules all for cost-to-fun and benefit:

Shifter karts.

Yes, the racing can be just as expensive as running an ITS or spec racer if you want to be competitive, but it's also a lot quicker and a lot more fun.

And autocrossing a shifter kart is ridiculously cheap for what it is. I just wish they'd let me throw wings on one.

Thanks for the interesting replies...

To clarify, I definitely don't "blame" or resent instructors in any way... I owe a *lot* to instructors over 10+ years and I've had incredible ones, chiefly Hank Watts in california as my first instructor - talk about luck - damn near crapped my pants that day when he took me for a ride. If it were me, instructors would drive for FREE, it's a hard job and it eats into your sessions - that's mostly why I opted not to do it... (that and the lack of a second brake pedal)

It's just simple math: if say 30% of comers pay less, the rest will pay more... I'm just wondering out loud if maybe the (seemingly) high ratio of instructors per student in my region (just basing that on the sea of yellow shirts) combined with possibly higher track rental fees might explain the near 100% increase in fees over 5 years... maybe not, maybe it's 99% just rental... I'm wondering, though, at what point as a club you are better off offering "less" and reducing the price point... I mean, I'm not exactly broke (yet) but whereas I wasn't thinking twice of getting up early and driving to the track for $180 a day, I'm probably not all that interested at $275 per diem anymore... At least not for 3 sessions... Some non PCA groups let you run all day, mish mash style, for $300...

>Try racing. Figure $2-$3K per weekend for stock-class PCA club racers.

I've done the math with a friend, and actually historics racing is not that bad, assuming you go for track time and don't give a rat's a$$ whether or not you are competitive ;-) But that's another kettle of fish and I'd rather not race my 912 ;-)

Rfactor and GTR have also gotten good enough now that I'm thinking of welding myself a rig with a race seat, a nice steering wheel and a giant monitor... zero insurance and tire costs ;-0 Not, it's not the same, but it's closer every year and it's always ready to be fired up, no inspection, no consumables, reset button ;-)

I wonder how much higher this can go before they lose people and the events become 80% instructors (because Solo and students can't afford it)... Maybe it's time I moved into a track-resort and built a house there!

I have never understood the appeal of DE's/track days. To me, racing is about competing to win. Second place is the first loser and all that..... Driving a street car around a racetrack is just not worth the effort/cost to me unless I can afford to go all out and race it competitively consequences be d@mned. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed myself during a few laps at MidOhio several times, but I just can't ever see myself spending hundreds/thousands of dollar on tires/fees/gear/trailer just to go out and "drive" somewhat cautiously around a racetrack just for "fun".

When I quit motocross racing, a friend suggested that I keep my bike for "trail riding"..... It is just not the same.... racing to win is the only thing that truly satisfies my motorsports urges.

I find I feel the same way. Once the novelty of driving your 911 around at top speed wears off, then what? You can get into some "racing" games within your DE group to get more out of it, but it is generally frowned upon. Besides, if a guy can get a 2010 Turbo and blow past you, are you really going to compete with him with a 25 yo 230hp car? If I get into it again, it would be some kind of equal playing field. The DE's anymore are a rich mans show.

Another reason that track fees have risen is the fact that there are more clubs doing track days. Thus, with that competition, tracks are able to charge more.

As for DE vs racing -- I think DE is a great means to prepare for club racing. When I get into CR, since I am familiar with the tracks I would race on, I can allow my subconscious to do more of the work like: driving the line, braking, setting up for the next sections of track...etc. That way, I can focus my conscious thought on the new stuff like passing, going two wide into a corner, making sure I don't crap in my pants...etc.

And while I haven't done any club racing, I won't instruct anything that is counter to racing at a DE. My thought is this: if we are on the track, we should be teaching the proper way to drive that track. For example: Lime Rock - Big Bend - I teach a double apex vs. a single apex for two reasons -- one - I believe it is a faster way around there, and two -- in a racing situation, a single apex line would open the inside of the beginning of the corner so a competitor can easily stick his nose in there.

Sorry to take this thread off-topic...
-Z-man.

agree. i really like competition and that's why ax gets me excited. sure it's the bastard kid brother to track racing but there's a score at the end with nifty little trophies!

i will do some DE's once my car is ready just because i NEED the training. but then it's back to ax until i can afford to race. and if i'm racing i'm thinking i'd be just as happy to race a 944 or SRF or what have you.

I agree that the fees have risen considerably (one local group now charges $500 for the day ($600 w/o pre-registration), and the same grumblings have been heard locally about PCA days - instructors driving cheap on the backs of newbies - green and yellow are always full with a waiting list, but the upper levels are never full, yet they don't book extra days to accommodate more greens and yellows. Don't know if it's true or not, I haven't driven with the club in several years. I hate 4 x 20 minute run groups over 2 days - I much prefer open track, or, at worst, 2 run groups, alternating back and forth all day.

However I'll go against what most are saying and state that I've been surprised how LOW my DE/lapping day costs have been, outside of reg fees. I bought a set of track wheels + tires (RA1s) that had 1 DE day on them and got 3 full seasons out of them before I finally corded a tire last November (last track day of the year). I've replaced brake pads only once. I've flushed brake fluid countless times, but at $25 a pop for a can of superblue, that's not really much expense. On a single day I'll go through:
$350 reg fee (if you book the season, $400 a la carte)
$100 gas @ $50 each (averaged: cheap at the station, expensive at the track)
$40 toll road charges

3 meals are included, including bbq and beer at the end of the day, plus water, juice, sports drinks, coffee and snacks all day. All of it is a business expense, too, so it's not out of my pocket per se, and it's pre-tax dollars.

One per month over a 6 (maybe 7 if we're lucky) month season is about 3 grand a year. Not bad for the fun I've had. I'll bet a season pass for golf or skiing would be equivalent.

Part of why I autocross the Miata. It's cheaper on everything. I actually paid 200 for the set of Falkens I will be running this year.

As for track days, our local PSCC club ran a few last year. We lost several thousand dollars on one, because the weather was iffy, and turnout was poor. Track fees are up, so it does cost to run an event. I have been tracking the 928, because it is so well set up, and was built for it, but I do have the itch to run a 911 on the track. I would much rather do that with the PCA, who know the car and know how to run an event.

In general, prices have been rising across the economic board. Gas ran from between a dollar and a dollar fifty for probably 20 years. Before that it ran under 30 for many ,many years, and then just jumped up, as it has now. Times are changing.

205/50's on a miata vs. 205/50's on an early 911. no difference for me.

Interesting perspectives on many levels. I have participated in several motorsports venues: motocross, flattrack, TT scrambles, enduros, RR on bikes as well as AX, RR, dirt & asphalt oval shortracks in cars ranging from Fiat850 spyders, z cars, RX7, GT1 camaro, Pinto's (ministock), Limited late model, to DE's in my 911. I even drag raced bikes and cars for fun.

To me AX was the most expensive on a seat time vs. $$ spent to be competitive analysis.

Enjoyed all of it in one way or another...bottom line is we all have different reasons to be involved in whatever venue and we must make our own cost/benefit decisions. Prices do seem to be creeping up, but the same can be said for greens fees, or hunting camps/leasures or fishing boats or whatever avocation you choose. As far as the competitive nature, I've reached a point that I have little to prove to others by beating them...the personal competition within myself is satisfaction enough. AS FAR as w2w racing, I grew weary of the effort to prepare for such events...it was like mounting a small military campaign chasing a small piece of wood and metal/plastic.

Guess I'm just getting old...so DE's are my forseeable endeavors.

Those that dream of advancing to w2w in a highly competitive series, be warned: it will run your future enjoyment as a spectattor. Like a drug they haven't invented yet.:D

I'll agree with you Greg - but think it has more to do with both insurance cost (blanket coverage) and the increased competition of other track day clubs (in Sebring especially).

While talking with a few of the racers - last time - they mentioned that 10 years ago they (PCA Suncoast) could book 5-6 days in the spring - weekend days - no problem -

In the past two years - they have been lucky to get 1-2 before it starts getting blistering hot. One of the reasons is that pro teams have been renting the track for testing - not for a day - but for an entire week at a time. And two = other clubs are competing for track time.

I personally wish that we would:

1. Try a few week day DE days - especially if we could do it for lower cost.

2. Give a discount for Solo drivers - hell the last three DE's I've been at - I bet there were less than 25 cars out during the yellow session - I even went out then just for more clear track time. It's not like you are using more resources (no instructor)

3. They have been increasing the costs for instructing - it was free at first for me - then $20 - and now $50... I think they should make it $75 if you don't have a student - $25 if you do - believe me when I say that it's hard work staying on top of a student all day.

I like to DE my car. I like to instruct. I know I'll tire of it at some point - but for now I still get jazzed at the opportunity to drive my car at the limit.

LOL, yes you can, depending on the drivers' skill. I'm not a great driver (far from it) but last weekend I passed a number of more expensive cars that were faster on paper, including GT3's.

But I know what you're saying re. the frustration of trying to be competitive against other drivers with similar/better skill AND superior equipment...

Hence the growing popularity of the spec classes! I can definitely see the attraction.

The cost to rent Sebring has gone up dramatically I remember in 2001 it was costing about $8500 per weekend "in season" day though it included fire rescue. That did not include insurance, corner workers, or event staff. Book both days and there was a slight discount.

In season was booked up this past year. Sebring now wants about $12,000 plus a $2,000 deposit against track damage. Still includes fire rescue iirc.


Have you checked out other groups? PBOC and Nasa both have good attendance at Sebring.

My company hosts days up here. This year we charge 290.00 for the day. We bring in a catered lunch as well.

Our format is for experienced lapping drivers and we provide coaches that are available for free at your request.

We limit registration to 24 cars and have an open track all day long so you can enter and exit when you like, no short sessions.

We put a lap record holding race car on the track with you to acclimate you to the feeling of faster traffic, we even can set you up with a helmet radio and talk to you as a spotter to let you experience being spoken to at turn in...

By the time we rent the track, pay our insurance, provide lunch and coaches etc we are not making any money. We hope to only recover our costs.

For most of our participants it is not about racing, it is about getting better at their craft, learning and improving. We have a lot of high dollar cars there that people do not want to wreck, yet want to drive on the track. Where better to explore your 2010 GT3RS or your 16M Scuderia?? Yet if you want to go racing we can get you to a school to get your lisence and then you can rent a 996 Koni car from the folks we partner with and try it out....

Cheers