Calling 1911 gurus.
 

Ok, just got back from putting 100 rds. through my almost new Series 80 Commander. She ain't ready for carry duty yet, but will be.

Groups were reliably 2-3" at seven yds., but always 2-3" high and right of dead center. Once I compensated by aiming that far low and left, I was able to keep half-dollar sized bullseye groups. I plan on Novak or Trijicon night sights, possibly contrasting Tru-Glo fiber optic sights. So I'm not worried about fixing this high and right issue yet. But I'm wondering if a guide rod will help here. I have one in my full size Springer and it's pretty accurate. What kind of tuning do I need if not a guide rod? Feeding is fine. The checkered wooden grips really bit my hands, so I ditched them for rubber ones after I was done on the range. I don't think that will make too much difference. And man, did accuracy suck at 10 yds. My SIG's are still way more accurate, but I like the size and feel of a Commander. So I want to bring this one up to par for carry duty. I won't carry anything I can't shoot at an expert level though.

Everyone I have ever talked to or written to--this includes some well-known 1911 pistol smiths--has expressed ambivalence about full-length guide rods (FLGR) vs. the standard-length GI guide rod. The advice I have received can be summed up as "if it comes with one, leave it in...if it doesn't, leave it alone."

The only case where it has been recommended is when the shooter need to reduce muzzle flip. Installing a heavy FLGR (tungsten or mercury-filled) can help with this. Unless you're shooting a space/race gun there's probably very little need to bother.

Edit--I'm a little confused, after re-reading your post. Your groups are nice and small at 7 yards but really bad at 10?

Not a guru, but I don't think the guide rod will make a difference. Actually, lots of guys ditch the guide rod for a GI setup to make it easier to disassemble.

It's either the sights or the trigger needs some work.

What's the muzzle look like?

Did you try shoot from rest (on a bench)?

I shot from a bench, but standing up and not leaning on anything.

I'm no expert but....

Are you hanging onto it firmly, but not so firmly that you shake. And are you squeeeeezing off the trigger.

Uh, yes. I'm a seasoned shooter. I know what I'm doing there. Perhaps I'm just too spoiled from all the super accurate SIG's I own or have owned. My first Commander and ParaOrdnance P-12 were hard to shoot straight too. The last Commander I had was a Lightweight, beat to hell, no custom work and it shot totally straight. My dad's Series 70 hasn't had anything done to it and it shoots very straight too.

oh grasshopper...........so many questions so lil time.


1st are ya gonna carry the damn thing at night(kind of heavy)? if yes buy trijicons. ya get about 7 years out of them.

2nd what kind of ammo were we using? cheap ass ammo or quality ammo. this will make a huge difference. pick up federal remington magtech and shoot a mag and then take wet cold rag from yer 6 pak ice chest and lay over gun until cold to hand. then shoot another flavor and see how it groups with other flavors.

3rd when all else fails and yer almost ready to pull the trigger on every midway/brownell goodie part................STOP and step away from the pistole. DONT DO NOTHING! put pistole in holster/rug and get in car. drive to thegunsmith.com (32nd and shea)nelson ford. tell him i sent you. now shut the hell up and listen to DR. NELSON FORD! he knows more than most and does this for a living. LISTEN TO HIM and DO WHAT HE SAYS!


and when hes done you will have a shooter. now since anybody whose anybody at DEA/FBI/ICE/MILTARY/MCSO/PHX P.D. etc takes their shooters there, he knows what the hell hes doing. dont argue with him dont PISS HIM OFF! do exactly what he says and yer life WILL BE BETTER as well as YER PISTOLES!


i just saw him sat. call him before you go. i mean it. call before you go cuz thats how he rolls, cuz he can.



now back to night sites yes or no. i wanted night sights on my full sized frames. he said "WHY" do you carry that at night? i said "NO" so we went with a brass bead. and damn if yer eye doesnt pick up that brass sight from across the room. on my lil ultra micro stainless .45 springfield we put night sites on it. aside from the rest of his MAGIC WAND TREATMENT!


and thats how i can accurately dance milk jugs from 50 yds rapid fire all damn day long.


listen to me on this. dont argue with him, dont talk politics. DONT PISS HIM OFF HE WILL THROW YOU OUT! and you will have lost the BEST GUNSMITH THIS STATE HAS EVER KNOWN!



now lets see here what has nelson done fer me?????????


marlin 45/70

3 various .45's

2 ruger 10/22's

3 winchester 30/30's

4 smith and wessons revolvers

1 m-1 carbine

coming up he'll be working on a M1A and some work on my ruger .22 pistole

oh yeah he does a hell of alot of all the GUNSITE VEAPONS!



he is good and SPECIALIZES IN 1911's and SMITH UND VESSONS.


mark my words if ya piss him off(and he can be a real PRICK) and i hear about it i will KICK YER ASS!


just DO AS THE DOCTOR SAYS and YOU TOO WILL AMAZE EVERYJUAN WITH YOUR .45 PISTOLE PROWESS!

Actually, I used three types of ammo. I used the cheapo Wolf, then the nice Aguila and then Federal HydraShoks, all 230 gr. I need to decide on sights before I tell anyone to cut a front dovetail. I like my Trijicons and they will replace the gas capsules for $54 total if you mail them your slide. I'm almost ready for my third set on my P220, which, BTW, was scary accurate today.

go to the doctor. do not use wolf ever again. aguila is pushing it.


shoot what the hell yer gonna BET YER LIFE ON! you cant use subpar ammo to group or set sights.


yes rick this just might cost you some $$$ to get it right...............or you can have nelson save you a hell of alot of money by setting sights and test firing. and then you go out and piss yerself silly at how well it works.


i have bean taking spoons to him for EVER. i pick up spoon, go buy some federal, shoot the hell out of it and piss all over myself how well they work each and every time. the guy is amazing. beyond words.


if this is yer carry then HANG THE EXPENSE! read his menu. pick what entree ya want. and be prepared to have a shooter like no other you have.


when its done he will call you. dont BUG HIM!


sat i dropped $218 on my smith 60 .357 for supersmith job and brass bead front sight. i always pay upfront. why? cuz he cranks it out very fast before others.

You know after finger-forking it the other day, I thougt I liked the short trigger, but that may be contributing to the problem. Maybe a longer (match) trigger would help, as you may have less of a tendancy to pull to the right (if right handed). Just something to think about.

Also, you might listen to OJ and have a reliability pkg, and trigger job done by a local smith. We are fortunate to have a few gurus here locally. Ford comes highly recommended: http://www.thegunsmith.com as does Ted Yost (and Jason Burton): Heirloom Precision and Chuck Rogers in Prescott: ROGERS PRECISION

rick no matter how much anyjuan here thinks they have the baddest azz spoon on the planet.........................EACH AND EVERYJUAN HAS FLAWS!


gun mfgs ONLY THINK THIS WAY:


1) profit

2) liability

3)performance


i dont know about YOU or ANYJUAN ELSE but i sure as hell dont think about numbers 1 and 2. so performance and reliability take a back seat.


now if you have some farm implement single shot shotgun that you use once every 20 years thats OK.


butt with us kind of folks that carry and do ser-i-ass target/combat wombat /hunting type shooting the only option is to fine tune the product no matter how much ya paid or who the mfg is.

now example: my lil "J" frame .38 stainless. back in 95 when it was produced they came with floating firing pin. floating firing pin takes a number of ops to mfg/machine/install. along comes these dumbazz lawsuits against gun mfgs. and suddenly a perfectly fine solution to misfires suddenly gets thrown in the poo can and a new POS firing pin is designed because of the need for an integral lock and its less expensive to produce. sooooooooooooooooo..................with that in mind unless you have a custom gun built from scratch and pay el supremo pesos, you are basically getting a pistol built on LOWEST BID, no matter who you buy it from.




sooooooooooooooo.....call dr. nelson ford. he WILL SOLVE ALL YER PROBLEMS! and YOU DO HAVE PROBLEMOS cuz it doesnt shoot fer POO!


and you have an IN with ME! and like i said.............PAY UP FRONT and it will be DONE MUCHO RAPIDO!


then blast 200 rds of quality ammo to break it in. tear apart and clean and THEN TAKE TO ROBAR. the money spent on ROBAR will pay for itself X 1000 with how little you have to clean and lubricate it.


heres another mfg debacle about springfields. springfield decided in their infinite wizdumb to cheapen up their extractors. yep you guessed it massive FTE situations. after learning this from the DR. i wouldnt OWN a springfield without a TITANIUM EXTRACTOR. see each and every mfg is a CHEAP AZZ in their own lil way.


go see the DOCTOR and STEP AWAY and you will be happy and YOU WILL THANK ME!


give all the wolf ammo to some idiot who likes cleaning his spoon for hours.

Actually, most of my SIG's have some portion of them redone in Robar's NP3, so the dirty ammo is no problem just wiping the guns down with paper towels. I had probably 10k rounds through my main P220 before I had an extractor problem.

Not sure I can bring myself to have this Commander done in NP3. My Springer is and it's almost too slippery to rack the slide back. I do have a spare skeletonized 1911 trigger laying around, so I might reinstall it and have a trigger job done. I will call Mr. Ford when I get back from my trip later in the week.

If it does that consistently, simply adjust the sights. Sometimes "adjustment tools" are a file and a drift and a hammer, if it has issue "fixed" sights.

Sounds like you are assuming something is wrong with the gun because it doesn't shoot to the sights. You are right, there is - the sights are miss-adjusted. A "guide rod" won't change that. I put that in quotes because the gun already has a guide rod, and I assume you mean a full length guide rod. A full length guide rod should not affect point of impact. If it does, then there is something wrong with it or the installation.

Full length guide rods are a funny thing. Thirty years ago, they were de rigeur, with everyone who was anyone in the 1911 world espousing their virtures. All the cool dudes had one. That's how you could tell they were... Nowadays, the pendelum has swung the other way. It's cool to say a full length guide rod is uncool - a sure sign of a duffer who doesn't know what he is doing.

Way back when, most 1911's were military surplus or, at best, built to somewhat sloppy military standards of fit. A full length guid rod may have served to tighten some of these up a bit. Today, most 1911's originate as civilian guns, built to higher standards of fit and finish. They are a lot tighter. Full length guide rods don't do a thing for these guns. They don't hurt them, but they don't help them either.

One advantage the "tactical" crowd likes to point out about the full length guide rod has to do with shooting from cover. When shooting over a barricade under stress, one likes to keep as low as possible. Sometimes the gun gets stubbed against the barricade as it is presented. 1911's with the short guide rod have allegedly been known to be pushed back out of battery enough to keep from firing, if that guide rod cover is pushed up against the barricade. A full length guide rod won't allow that to happen. Seems a bit of a stretch to me, but that's what the kids say.

how loose is the barrel bushing on the front of the spoon?

Not loose at all. Gun is almost new.

the combo of dr. nelson and dr. robbie(robar) CANNOT BE BEAT! nuthing finer.


i have so many spoons and shoot so often i hate cleaning them. i only take (2) out at a time, since my cleaning style is full disassembly and using a q-tip. having robar on any semi-auto really makes my life simpler. it comes down to how much time ya want to spend on them.


as mentioned a tight gun shoots tight groups. butt a tight gun(racegun) has MORE FTF and FTE problemos due to grit sand dust and all the crap we get to deal with here. try riding a quad/dirty bike/jeep behind yer buddies or kids for 80 miles sucking dust and yer guns getting totally covered in crap and then see how a tight gun shoots. they wont. and thats reality.


if you take a WW II 1911 and shake it , it will rattle alot cuz they were set up loose to allow for crap(sand/mud/etc.) getting into action and they still go bang all the time.



rick the next sw regional 3 gun shoot ya need to take yer camera and see what is being used and how hard they are used in crap conditions. they are actually abused to the level of combat. and you will notice most survive the match because they are set up loose.


and at these matches you will be surprised at what works and doesnt work. it was a real eye opener for me. dr. nelson sets a hell of alot of these up.



just go in and tell him exactly what you want it for. combat wombat, carry,punching paper, hunting, and he will steer you to 1911 UTOPIA!

Talk to Dr. Ford but heed Mr. OJ's warnings. :)

Yost & Co. at Heirloom are sadly only taking on full builds, last time I asked. Perhaps (though not likely) the economy has changed that policy. I *think* they'll do a Commander-length gun but Jason Burton told me they will NOT do Officer length due to inherent reliability concerns.

+1 Jeff.

Use lighter bullets, it will group lower.

You can drift the rear sight to compensate for the windage adjustment.

At 7yds, honestly, you should be shooting much smaller groups than that.

A match grade barrel with integral feed ramp is a magnificent investment in any 1911.

It would be interesting to see how it would perform in a Ransom Rest. Do any ranges or gun clubs in the area have one you can use.

i have watched nelson kick people out of his shop. he dont feek around. either he likes you or he hates you. you will either like him or hate him. no GREY AREA!



nelson has safes full of guns to work on.................FOR EVAR! he is in such high demand. his work IS THAT GOOD!


and once you subscribe to his doctrine, you are well on the way to becoming an honest to goodness SHOOTIST of the HIGHEST ORDER!



just snagged me a smith und vesson late production model 66-7. built for australian(upside down canucks) police contract. barely used. muy BUENO MUY EXCELLANTE CONDITION! came with pachmeyers from factory contract. real damn cheap. 4" barrel stainless .357.

like about $400 bucks less than a new stainless 686 4" .357 model.

late model 2002 -2004 production and its an "L" FRAME not "K" FRAME. "L" frame beefier. damn near exact dimensions as new 686 side by side.


calling smith und vesson customer service to check any recalls and history and to get owners manual(free to us anal shooters). insane good customer service.


theres another juan going to nelson for his supersmith job.

Pffft.
Shoot it off of a sandbag.
Ok, well a Ransom rest would be ideal...
Shooting it offhand for any type of acurracy analysis is silly.

smith und vesson updatum on my recent screaming deal 66-7. this is why i love smith und vesson................CUSTOMER SERVICE just like ya get with nelson ford.


guy at smith bent over backwards researching this gem. mfgd on 12/13/04. no recalls ever. owners manual being sent out today. it is a "K" FRAME not a "L" frame like i was told this am. one of the last 1000 or so off the line as production ceased on this particular model 12/31/04.


they will refinish it and it is called "SATIN" finish for a nominal fee.



now as mentioned. customer service(KUNDENDIENST auf deutsch) is numero uno with me and nelson has taken the time to explain what werks and what doesnt. he has bent over backwards for me quite a few times and dropped what he was doing to get my stuff right. he is a shooting fool. be it his class III M-14, his .30 caliber belt fed browning, or pistols/rifles.



everyjuan has his opinions and some are good and some are wayyyy baddddd. nelsons opinions are from hands on shooting/custom work, not some stoopid gun test by some flatlander.


i recommend him every chance i get and not juan of my amigos has EVER BEAN DISAPPOINTED!


worth every penny and every bit of time for those that do this alot.



the only drawback...........................ONCE YA GET A SPOON CUSTOMIZED...............NOTHING ELSE IS EVER SAFE FROM CUSTOMIZING! $$$$$$$

Unless you are known to be able to shoot one hole groups offhand with other pistols...

I was almost doing this today with my SIG's.

Update

Took the Commander to the range again today. Shot the same as before, a little tighter groups, but still way high and right. After the first shot, I remembered to aim low and left and did pretty well with it. Still, at 30' I was not making any kind of groups with it. WTF? I was shooting 230 gr. today. Eric C. was there and shot it a bit. He's left handed and his groups, while aiming for the bullseye were low and left, which was where I was aiming when I hit the bullseye.

OJU, I don't want to piss off Mr. Ford with a lot of questions. How much am I looking at for a reliability package from him?

I'm starting to think I'm not gonna be able to ever carry this gun. I feel very confident and competent with my SIG's and not so with my Commander.

First, drift the rear sight with a brass punch to bring the shot group in vertical line with the bullseye. Then experiment with various loads and find the one that shoots closest to the bullseye in said vertical plane. Each load can shoot to a distinctly different point of aim, especially when different bullet weights are used. Try some 165gr loads and some 185s, 200s, and 230s. See which weight shoots closest to the bullseye.

I think you'll get good results with the lighter weights.

Or, replace the sights entirely with adjustables.

2-3" is not really very good at 7yds though. I would get some trigger work done to help out in that dep't.

I've seen how you shoot your Sig. Based on your groups that i've seen that you shoot with it, that spoon is your soulmate. You two belong together. Just like me and my P7. :)

That sounds like a logical starting point. I'd probably spring for a set of adjustable (yet carry-friendly) Novaks.
Understatement of the year. RL is being modest when he says he is a "seasoned shooter". He was punching ragged holes all day long today. I on the other hand had a few ragged hole groups, but with way too many "flyers" and a bit of a flinch rearing it's ugly head from lack of practice.

I'm blushing. My right hand is shaped like a SIG grip. I really have countless thousands of rounds through my SIG's. But then every time I get another one, it shoots perfectly out of the box. So it's not me. It's just that SIG's are great. My P226's trigger was a tad notchy today though. Off to Robar she goes!

Yes, I want to have some work done on the Commander. But I hate the idea of dumping more money into what is already the most expensive handgun I've ever bought just to make it shoot right. I usually steal them for a fraction of market value, so this one was a huge purchase for me. The more I look around and see what Wilson and Les Baer guns cost, the more I wonder why I love 1911's. They just don't shoot that great without dumping a ton of money into them. And my P7's shot just fine out of the box too for less than my Commander cost.

I lost my 1911 bug long ago. I still think they're very handsome, but there are many other firearms i would rather depend my life on. 1911's are just so finicky.

Besides, how are you ever realistically going to shoot any better a 10yd group with a handgun than this group that my used box stock P7 with full power +P+ JHP ammo did, the first day i owned it?

You seem to group just as well with your sig, so for the life of me, i don't know why you'd try and replace it with a gun that's really just as large.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...holepsprt1.jpg

With the Fastfire II HUD on it and any kind of decent lighting, my P7 has the accuracy of a lightning strike from God out to 25 yards. :D

I had my LCP to the range the other day too, and was shooting about 1.5" groups off hand at 7 yards with it, using the Crimson Trace laser.

In my experience, this is only when a manufacturer attempts to "improve" upon the original design with (unnecessary) tighter tolerances or "features" that (even slightly) change the operation or timing of the spoon. Stick with the original design, and things go well. Tart it up, and you need to spend $$$ fixing everything you just fked up with your "improvements". Unfortunately a lot of companies (Kimber and Para leap instantly to mind) don't make this second investment in ensuring their "enhancements" aren't screwing things up. Add to that the mass production mentality from some of the larger companies (that employ assemblers instead of gunsmiths) and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not talking sights, stocks, or cosmetic/ergonomic changes. I mean things like tighter slide/frame fit, tighter lug engagement, additional "safety" doohickeys, lighter springs, etc.

To me the key ingredient to any 1911 build is an integral feed ramp match grade barrel.

Right on. A standard mil-spec 1911 will be one of the most reliable autos you can lay your hands on. Probably not the most accurate, but that was never the intent. Bulleye, or "2700" competitors have recognized for generations that attempts to significantly accurize one lead to finicky operation, but they have been willing to accept that in the game they play. Their modified guns never leave the range. Such shenanigans have no place in a carry or duty gun, though.

The same dynamic is at work here that I mentioned on my ".375 H&H" thread. Everyone wants the coolest, most accurate, most gee-wiz gun at the range to show off to their shooting buddies. A parkerized, mil-spec, fixed sight 1911 just don't do it these days. Especially one that shoots 3"-4" groups (at 25 yards by the way - what's with this 7 yard grouping? My range doesn't even have stands closer than 25...). No cool factor or bragging rights there. So the same dissease has infected the 1911 world - tighten them up in the name of accuracy (clearing a jam at the range or in a match is no big deal) and festoon them with so many adornments as to render them virtually useless in the real world.

Oh, and Rick - drift the rear sight and file it down. Re-file the notch a bit deeper if you have to. This is how one adjusts the sights on a "fixed" sight 1911. It's not the load, it's not your grip, it's not how you hold your mouth. It's the sights.

rickster, 1st did you put nite sights on it?

if yes, probably need to be drifted to correct POA(point of AIM)


if no, OEM sights may have been banged, drift sights again to correct POA.


if you still have yer target, bring it with you to the DR.

remember the DR. is by appt. ONLY!


bottomline here...................if this is yer carry guns(you and eric) I WOULD NOT DORK WITH THEM AT ALL! ie. BET YER LIFE ON THEM! have the DR. wave his magic wand.



heres the drill w/the DR.. he is busy ALWAYS. all you have to do is explain what you want, he will tell you that either what you want is GREAT or it is STOO-PID.


he will tell you what to do how to do it and why to do it in spades.



he is a SHOOTIST! if yer having this much problems getting groups bring yer target to show the DR. and a BOX OF PREMIUM FEDERAL MATCH .45 and tell him you want it range tested.


i havent a clue what the hell it will cost. too many variables. bad day at mfg. plant, you guys playing gunsmith, ammo, tolerances, your shooting ability, wind, solar flares, sunspots, barrel hot etc.



believe it or not he will tell you if its a keeper or a lemon, and yes there are lemon guns where fixing is just stoopid to do due to expense.



butt at the end of yer spoon psychiatric consultation session, he will present you with a BILL PAYABLE RIGHT THEN AND THERE! cash works wonders, he takes credit cards also.


so splain yer ailments and ya get a bill. if ya notice the sign on the wall it states " if ya want a rush job bring a box of federal .308 MATCH BTHP ammo" and he will rush it thru.



the DR. has my 1894 marlin lever stainless .44 mag right now. he has done about (5) spoons of various flavors for me this year so far. next up is the marlin 1894 stainless .357, then the build(again with even more uber goodies) on the springfield mcmillian/arrington super duper match M1A. yes i grabbed every SADLAK part for this they offer. it is over the top insane. dont EVEN want to know how much into it i have, but lets just say its a HELL OF ALOT! it should be able to shoot dingleberries off a flys butt at 1000 yds! thats with a springfield illuminated 4.5 X 14 range finder reticle on it. yes its heavy, yes its spendy, yes its a GIANT PITA to carry around, but it is OVER THE TOP fun sitting in a blind, watching an open area(very prevalent in northern az-juniper islands) with a water hole at dawn or dusk and sniping the hell out of 4 legged furry creatures. we took this years back to winona,az. east of flagstaff and north about 4 miles to the praire dog farm. the day prior we went out and set lil cones out at 100-200-300yds out to 1200yds. came back following dawn with kids and proceeded to vaporize the praire dawg colony with it. great practice doing yer "comeups" and changing range up or down on yer target knobs. as day got sunny, heat came into play,wind drift corrections etc. great practice for long range ge-schutzen.



and trust me the praire dawgs DID NOT LIKE US ONE IOTA! the buzzards sure did and so did the coyotes(the trickster).



the DR. is IN tues-sat. thegunsmith.com

i just reread yer post about not feeling a WARM FUZZY w/this commander. kind of mentioned the LEMON SYNDROME!



yeah man there are lemons from every mfg. just like our 911's not a damn bit different. some just become a MONEY PIT and NO WARM FUZZIES!



if its carry leave it as stock as ya can and only replace parts with UBER GOOD parts recommended by the DR>.



it doesnt matter who the mfg. is. or how damn much ya pay. some are insane accurate outta da box, and some are POS!



the DR. has done i think (3) of my .45 1911's now. you would be surprised what we did and didnt do and how well they shoot or OUTSHOOT in comparison to some $2500 spoons.




even my lil itty bitty baby ultra micro spring-a-ding .45 will dance milk jugs all day long with good ammo at 50yds.



the DR. is NOT INTO glitz and GLAMOUR B.S. parts. he will ONLY change out or install what is NEEDED. hell 3/4's of the time he shoots me in the ass with my beer soddened hair brain STOOPID better badder cooler dumbass ideas from a magazine!

Accuracy is the only issue with this one. No FTF or FTE. Everything works fine and I love it otherwise. I'm sure it's not a lemon. I've owned other Commanders and this one is the nicest and functions the best. However, my dad has one of those real special ones, the kind that was made on a good day at the factory and just shoots like Gold Cup out of the box. Of course, he won't give it to me. But that's the kind of Commander I'm after.

Stupid question. If it shoots say 3" high and right at 21', do I drift the rear sight left or right?

drift in the direction ya want it to shoot.

And file in the direction you want it to shoot. ;)

On the rear sight, anyway. If it shoots high, file the rear. If it shoots low, file the front.

Peacemakers are a good example of "fixed sight" guns with built-in adjusability. They will all shoot low and left with standard for caliber loads. We file the front sight to raise point of impact to the desired level, and screw the barrel a little more into the frame to correct windage. Works like a charm. The only difference on a 1911 is that you can't screw the barrel in deeper, so the rear sight is in a dovetail so you can drift it.

The sights are three dot, so filing isn't gonna change the orientation. Only repainting them would, right?

Hmm... that makes it harder. Your only real option then is replacement with a lower rear or higher front.

Or you could always just paint over all three dots. I never have liked those things. It's impossible to get any sort of decent accuracy by trying to line up three dots. It's far, far easier to align a big fat post in a square notch, both for elevation and windage.

i went into the DR. wanting oh so bad night sites. he looks at me cross eyed and says WTF? are you a cop? i said "NO". he said WTF ya going out at night for? i said "i dont really i drink beer at home alone" and we started singing george thorogoods "i drink alone" in 2 part harmony. anyway the DR. showed me the katz azz super duper trick of all time for many spoons.



polished brass front sights(sites)! from across the room your eye will pick them up. and that aint NO POO!



he will set it up for you just like pointing yer finger at an object as if yer finger was the barrel.



instinctively you will point front sight at object you want to vaporize and wonders of wonders you will vaporize it.



the eye will pick these damn brass sights up far better than you realize until you do it. wayyyy better that the bobbing weaving crap of lining up 3-dots.



i have done this on also a number of revolvers. and the marlins have them also.



ask him about it and he will give a demonstration.



the only night sights(sites) he recommends is for small framed anything(revolver or semi) that you might actually pack concealed at night. or if yer a cop.


7-12 years life out of tritium no matter the mfg.


it really does become "point and shoot" with my eyes only looking at front sight(site).