which one, and why?

[tabs]

I wash my hands of you all in this discussion..let your fates befall you...

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by tabs

I wash my hands of you all in this discussion..let your fates befall you...

Tabs,

Our fates will befall us either way we look... So personally will drive the Porsche.

[imcarthur]

And if you make it to the east, I found an hour of roads in the Adirondacks last week that will put a smile on any motoring enthusiast's face. But I will only tell you if you buy a Porsche.

Ian

[mjohnson]

Three years ago we picked up a '02 996 C2 for the main purpose of high speed road trips. Been to Canada and Michigan twice, NV/UT/TX/WY/NE multiple other times.

On the interstate, it's just a car that attracts cops and d-bags. On the back roads - heaven.

It's off warranty, so all of the things that you think they would have designed to last 100k miles? They went to crap between 55k and 70k. Nothing's cheap to fix on these things, so be careful. Think 3k for a clutch, 600 for a bad ball joint, 750 to replace the P.O.S. water pump.

Numerous times I've been ready to drive it off of a cliff, but the drive to the edge is so great that I accept its quirk$ and bring it back home.

That said, it'll turn into a tuned Legacy GT this summer. Equal power, especially at this altitude, but probably not as much sweetness in the driving.

[Jim Richards]

You must not DiY.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by tabs

I wash my hands of you all in this discussion..let your fates befall you...

Pony-ontous Pilot speaks...then washes his hands. all is good. Let the crucifixion begin.

[speeder]

I like the new Mustangs for what they are, haven't driven the new GT yet. That said, those two cars are such an apples/oranges comparison. The Mustang has the advantage of being massively cheaper, (if both were new or both were the same age used), bang-for-the-buck, etc...

There is a HUGE delta between the two in terms of quality of construction and just value. The Mustang is the same disposable car that it's always been and the 911 is the same *built like a bank vault* car that it's always been. The build quality of a new 997 is phenomenal, the Mustang is a typical Ford. I like Fords and think that they build as good of a car or truck as any car company in America but to compare it to a Porsche is not fair.

Some people have "new car fever" and just want a brand new car. That's OK, without it there would be no world economy as we know it. I've never understood it as a car nut, though. I'd rather have a 3 or 4 year old BMW that has depreciated in half than a new car that costs the same. The BMW is still a $60k car and the new car is a $30k car, if you know what I mean. I'd rather have more car for the same $$ than have a new car. If I could afford a new 911, that would be a different story.

People keep talking about the 997 breaking down, etc... Those cars do not break, as a rule. They are tougher than tough. I would not expect any new-ish car to break under normal use, that would be very unusual and it would suck no matter what you are driving. I know multiple people with 2005 997s, (first year), they drive the piss out of them and have had exactly zero issues with the cars. They are as good as motorcars get.

I know of a super low-mileage '08 997S coupe in black/black for sale here in SoCal if you're interested. I think that it's around $65k. Different animal than a Mustang.

[911Freak]

Porsche.......There is no substitute

Nuf said

[speeder]

Originally Posted by mjohnson

It's off warranty, so all of the things that you think they would have designed to last 100k miles? They went to crap between 55k and 70k. Nothing's cheap to fix on these things, so be careful. Think 3k for a clutch, 600 for a bad ball joint, 750 to replace the P.O.S. water pump.

Those are super-high, dealer service dept. prices. If you take a Ford into the dealer and just hand them your credit card, you'll get violated as well.

I owned a 996 and it's more like $1200 for a clutch, (including labor at a good independent Porsche shop), $600 if I do it myself. $1200.00 is generous, Tyson Schmidt once did a clutch on a 996 in under an hour start to finish. They are way easier to work on than an air-cooled 911. (Which is already an easy car to work on).

Complete factory clutch kits from our host:

Porsche 996 Clutch & Flywheel - Page 1

You got hosed.

[alwaysflat6s]

Hummmm. You noticed my "handle"? Well, NOT always. Mostly tho.

If the economy is hurting like they say, can you get a deal on a new 5.0? Otherwise I would suggest making do with the P-car for a couple of years and buying a cream puff Mustang that has been lightly used. Let someone else fall off the depreciation cliff for you.

Take that extra money and have use it to add some garage space and perhaps a sweet tuned Boxster or 964? Then you can watch the Mustang gently depreciate while the P-car just ..is. And laugh all the way to the bank.

Sadly, I have to disagree about the newest P-cars. They have become much more like current Audis. [Ask me how I know about.. both! Sigh.] They have greatly improved the perceived quality of the car in so many ways, but ever since the 996 it has been built to a much cheaper price point. Once you look past the pretty finishes there are a lot of things about these cars that look like they were put together at.. the .. local Ford plant! [err, are there any more local USA Ford plants these days?] I love my 6-2 but it isn't built anything like my old 911s. I sure wish it were and I realize the company would probably be out of business if it hadn't changed. THO, it changed so radically that the production cost... well, that isn't exactly the discussion here. BUT I suggest that if you think you are buying a totally superior ENTHUSIAST CAR with a later P-car, you are gonna be awfully upset when a good driver in a recent 5.0 gets on your tail on one of the delightways and he... just.. won't.. go.. away.

I admit it. I have had new Mustang V8 thoughts also. Tho, not at the expense of getting rid of P-cars. Not even the newish cheapo things. [when you look hard and touch all the surfaces and feel them..and.. gasp.. take them apart.. and realize it is just nice paint and finishes on top of cheap plastic and a lot of it is just.. stuck.. together.. It kinda makes you squirm. Especially if you paid big money for it.

Oh, make it a 5.0 and maybe swap the sticker for the V6. And keep that exhaust level down so you can shock them really good.

JR

[mjohnson]

Regarding the violative repair prices I quoted - you've correctly identified me as a checkbook mechanic. Got no facilities for such, but I really wish I did. There's not much competition in the Porsche repair market in northern New Mexico.

Except for electronic things, I'd bet they're easier to work on than the old ones. They do seem more "modular" though. Like you replace the big assembly when the little part breaks - or maybe that's why my mechanic has a much nicer house than I do?

Darn fun car to pound out the miles with though!

[ODDJOB UNO]

you are correct. not many nava-joes seem to like p-cars. maybe if porsche made a pick 'em truck they might catch on. p-cars and dirt roads dont usually get along well.

[Jim Richards]

Poosha knows rallye cars

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Poosha knows rallye cars

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh YES A POOSCHA DEALERSHIP STRICTLY FOCUSED ON SELLING ONLY RALLEYE CARS TO THE NAVA-JOES! based in farmington , new messiko.



what a concept! i wanna be the poster test ralleye boy ripping around the REZ with a bale of HAY in the back seat and a rifle rack! werks fer me!


cant you just see me ripping it over a nava-joe sandstone dune at mega mach speed getting GNARLY AIR with the spires of MONUMENT VALLEY as a backdrop. what brilliant advertizing!



should we focus on sheep ranchers? cattle ranchers?



or get some pics of the p-car parked next to the HOGAN on a nice muddy/snowy winters day when roads have turned everyjuans tires to glazed donuts and all the cattle/sheep are being helo dropped feed because roads impassable and here comes this cayenne/p-car ripping it spinning rooster tails to high hell!


now thats postive focused market driven advertizing!



i VOLUNTEER for this mission! YET TA HAY! GET THE HELL OUTTA MY WAY!

[Dottore]

"When I was young and naïve, I believed that important people took positions based on careful consideration of the options. Now I know better. Much of what Serious People believe rests on prejudices, not analysis. And these prejudices are subject to fads and fashions."

Paul Krugman began his financial column in the NYT with that quote this morning, and I thought it applied rather nicely to this thread. ;-)

Speeder: I've owned a 997 before, and I'm not so sure there is such a huge delta between quality and construction of a Porsche and a new Mustang. I think there is a huge engineering gap between the two—but not so much in the quality of the construction. These things are both built by robots, and both have acres of plastic in them.

That said, I'll probably end up with the 997 for all kinds of reasons that have little to do with the merits or fun factor of these two cars. I mean crickey, what about all my mates who drive Porsches or better? I'd have to find a whole new circle of friends with that Mustang—and they're all hooligans, right? And what about those lovely PCA wine and cheese parties? And, as Paul points out, I'd need to have a mullet if I'm to have any credibility with the Mustang crowd.

And then, finally, there is my wife. "It's a slippery slope" she said to me. "First you'll buy a Mustang, then you'll start shopping at Tommy Bahama and then you'll book us a vacation in Las Vegas for Christs sake." And she's usually right.

So the cards are stacked against the 'Stang. That may change in a couple of years, when word filters through the ranks about just how good the new 5.0 liter GT is. I mean, when word gets out, Mustangs may actually become as fashionable as Coach handbags. Meanwhile do yourself a favour, go to your local dealer and drive the manual V8 version. And drive it hard. It's a revelation of sorts.

[rnln]

:lol:
at least there is a hot one like this there: http://mustangforums.com/forum/image.php?u=28524&dateline=1226772082

Originally Posted by gtc

If you get a mustang, you can hang out on mustangforums.com with people like this.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Speeder: I've owned a 997 before, and I'm not so sure there is such a huge delta between quality and construction of a Porsche and a new Mustang. I think there is a huge engineering gap between the two—but not so much in the quality of the construction. These things are both built by robots, and both have acres of plastic in them.

I am basing my statement on laying hands on several newer Mustangs since the re-design in '06(?). I actually really like them, nobody does retro like Ford, IMO. The Mustang, the T-bird, the GT,...they all rock. The styling is great and I love the interior.

I've owned newer Ford trucks in the past few years and spent time in dealers buying parts, getting warranty work done, etc. Several times, I've been admiring the new Shelbys, Mustang GTs, Roushes, etc., in the showroom. We have the largest Ford dealer in the world here and they sell all variants. When you close the door of one of those cars, you can hear an echo as things waver and vibrate inside the door shell. It's like a big, hollow canoe.

I've also spent time @ the Porsche dealer buying parts and visiting guys that I worked with decades ago. The 997s and other models seem to be made of granite in comparison. Yes, they have soft plastic bumper covers like all new cars these days, including zillion-dollar Ferraris. The metal/rubber/leather/glass parts are a big cut above anything made in my country, I'm afraid. The engineering and overall performance, which includes toughness and how it will perform in 10 years, is legions above a Mustang or a Corvette.

This argument is as old as cars and there were people in 1968 who insisted that a Corvette or other American car was superior to a Porsche as a performance car. They could never back it up with endurance or sports car racing victories but goddamn it, it's worth fighting over after enough beer has been consumed. I could show some people the difference between a new Mustang and [Iany new Porsche and they still would not "get it". I guess it's an unwinnable argument.

[m21sniper]

To me the 997 is the least inspiring looking model of all the various 911's.

It's just soooo plain jane looking.

I would much rather have the Mustang.

PS: Personally, i'd rather have a new vette than either, as the vette would handily outperform both and IMO looks better than both as well.

[M.D. Holloway]

I'm a Cayman fan - just has better lines is all IMO

[m21sniper]

Agreed.