http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1279654398.jpg..Detroit 1949



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1279654440.jpg Detroit TODAY

I have posted this before..

Now do U Boyz get just how DESTRUCTIVE the Obama vision of CHANGE is...

Tabbs, why bring politics into the main Off-Topic forum?

China Financial Markets » The pace of change
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/imgLi...Manziimage.jpg

China makes almost everything for us now, that sort of mega shift empties and rots out an old rust belt city like Detroit.

Automation...............:(

I agree. No need to bring up unions and their socialistic ways and how they contributed to the downfall of Detroit. That kind of thing belongs in PARF, not here.

Stinky is here.

There are some VERY beautiful buildings and homes in Detroit. Some of the most wonderful homes ever built. Most are vacant and beyond repair IMHO. It is a serious shame as to what has happened. Greed from every corner caused this debacle.

This is what happens when more than 2/3 of your civilians move out. Rents in the area are dirt cheap. Homes are dirt cheap. Land is dirt cheap. In comparison to the rest of the country that is. But there are still some good people there. There are some areas that are not blighted. There is some uptick.

I like the idea of moving people on section 8 to the area and having them help build homes and make repairs. Teach them trades and give them skills and a sense of accomplishment. Then get them off the dole and let them work.

Let them work where? Building what for who?

Tabs, there has to be some kind of agenda for that plot of land. It has an airport to the east, and a cemetery to the west. If you look on the far side of the airport (Coleman Young, by the way), the neighborhood has not been torn down like the one you posted.

That photo reminds me of a story I heard a while back:
The oldest surviving relative of one of my friends is an old geezer living in a suburb of Oklahoma City. Probably well into his 90's by now.
He survived to such a ripe old age by not partaking in cigarrettes or alcohol - the two vices directly responsible for all five of his siblings deaths. So with no siblings, no booze, and no smokes, he's a grouchy old bastard.
Well, I suppose living to that age in the same house means seeing pretty much everyone in the neighborhood either kick the bucket or move out. So what he does is buy their house and immediately knock it down. Then he puts up a chainlink fence around the property, and parks a single dog inside it.
Now he's just about the only guy on the block, and has surrounded his lot with five dogs.... named after the previous owner of each torn down house.

I travel to the east cost for business extensively and Baltimore is like that as well. Rows and rows of abandoned house than can be purchased for the property tax owing ($5K-$8K).

Once a thriving industrial town, now empty ghost towns...similar to scenes in the Will Smith movie Legend I Am. Very sad and depressing.
Yasin

Right to the point. "If you build it, they will come". No, not to this land, not to this town, for nothing and nowhere. The jobs are gone and the hope is gone, and I for one would hate to live here.

Hugh, are you working on Hung ??

What about a bunch of us pooling our money, building a fence and making Detroit a game preserve??

There was a time in the 1970s when parts of New York were horribly blighted. Those areas have come back, been redeveloped, yuppified. Similar story in some other cities.

Also, while a lot of what happened to Detroit is the auto industry, also it's suburbanization. For decades, the center of all sorts of East Coast cities (and not just East Coast) was emptying out as people chased big green lawns and developer homes. Some cities recovered, some have not.

Is Hung shot in Detroit? No, I'm working on an ABC cop show for the Fall Detroit 1-8-7

I always believed in the concept that metropolitan hubs expanded more and more out into the suburbs until the maximum travel time/density limiter was bumped against.
-During this time the downtown would suffer.
-Eventually the exodus wave would start reversing, and it would again became fasionable to work closer to whatever the draw of the "big-city downtown" was: offices, manufacturing, universitys, ports, transportation hub, rivers, whatever...

In Detroit's case they were faced with international labor and tax advantages, high medical costs, myopic unions, cancerous corruption on all levels, racial contentions, and an extra large tablespoon of apathetic stupid in every glass.

Sounds reasonable. That has happened in the older cities in CA starting with San Fran, I believe, many years ago. In Los Angeles the downtown is so dense now that one can't escape the smell of dog urine.

People come back alright, they just think they can bring their lawn with them.

What that graph says is that America continues to innovate ways to make stuff with fewer people involved.

. . oh, and I expect that we are still the world leader of manufacturing output.


. . . of course, unions want us to stop innovating. --someone might lose a job. Just think of all the jobs we could have kept in Detroit if only unions did a better job of stopping innovation and continued to make Pinto's and Pacers the hard way. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

Three letters; J, O, B, S, . .. jobs!

The US is still the leader in manufacturing followed by China, Japan and Germany. China is the fastest growing.

Island is right: we do more with less. The country that has the technological edge will always be the leader.
Detroit is a single industry town. Before cars is was covered wagons. Cars are gone. The immigrants that were in the auto industry in it's early days made money and lived the American dream. Know where the automotive money went? Just look at Detroit's surrounding suburbs.

Downtown is abandoned. Business people traveling to Detroit that need to stay in the city, stay near the GM headquarters, the Renaissance Center. For entertainment most go to Windsor for gambling and the strip clubs. Detroit answered with a Casino in Greektown. The ball park area is nice but travel outside that area and is a war zone.

Detroit also has the largest registry of Lamborghini's.

Tab. Tabs, Tabs,

This has got nothing to do with Obama. You yourself provided detail of what Detroit looked like years ago and over time. Many probably think he wasn't born here or lived in Kenya, Indonesia or wherever during Detroit's decline.

I wish you would stop giving this President credit for turning the mighty motor city into a war zone. No one has that much power. Stop inflating his skill or lack or skill.

You misunderstand his post. He is drawing parallels that what happened to Detroit, there are politicians trying to do to the country.

Paul,

I was building upon thoughts of a previous poster in this thread. Got me thinking in a generalization type of way.

Move section 8 people to a location that is depopulating. Have them work on the existing homes to bring them up to speed so they have new section 8 housing they worked on. They learn trades through OJT. Land is available around them, let them grow something. Get them situated in an area and let them re-build it. Repopulate and it will grow, eventually.

Let them work where? In their own new neighborhoods. Consolidate. Provide labor.

Building what for who? Their own homes for themselves. Maybe learn to create so they can contribute to society instead of only removing.

How would you suggest moving people off the dole? What can be done to re-utilize this land? Too heavily populated on the coasts. Too much farm land being gobbled up for sub-divisions. Not enough food production inside our own borders. Too much manufacturing leaving this country. We do not make the things, nor the things that make the things. We currently provide some teaching and learning services but that is going away as well. What will a service only based economy look like? What happens to a people when they no longer do for themselves? What happens when we no longer educate the younger generation because we do not want to spend the money on them?

Yep, rhetorical questions.

Is the country dependent on a single domestic industry, like Detroit was on the Big Three?

Is the country becoming more and more heavily unionized?

Is the country subject to suburban flight, to the "suburbs" of Mexico and Canada?

Now do U Boyz get just how DESTRUCTIVE the Obama vision of CHANGE is...

From Tabs


Tell me what I missed.

yep, thats exactly how it still looks..

In the 50's the quote was: "what is good for General Motors is good for the country. " This is a time when the Big 3 had over 95% market share. GM had over 50% maybe close to 60% of the market. Additionally, GM was essentially a holding company because many companies were part of this massive organization.

You had the separate companies:
Chevrolet
Cadillac
Pontiac
Buick
Oldsmobile
GMC
Fisher Body
AC Spark Plug
Frigidaire
Saginaw Steering Gear
Harrison Radiator
Allison Engine
Detroit Diesel and many more.

If you look at what drives our economy; it's consumption. Now there are many cities and towns dependent on one industry. Detroit, Flint, Janesville, WI and others where the one industry created the town. Those towns are a fraction of what they where. It is not desirable to be a one industry anything. It's also had to shift a semi-skilled work force to high tech jobs w/o training or getting new skill. Retail jobs pay significantly less.

The union population is shrinking. It is now at 7% of the entire work force. Now I don't know if this includes public sector (government) jobs. Ten years ago it was 11%. Unions had their place years ago, but I have a hard time buying the line they are causing our current problems.

I don't understand your last comment.

Here's to hoping that in 10 years it will by 3%.

And honestly, the government is growing massively, those are ALL union jobs. Methinx you need to reexamine your figures, this time with gov't union jobs included.

I just finished union sensitivity training at my facility and the number of union jobs has been on a steady decline. Many feel the decline in manufacturing and moving it to low cost country's is the result of moving away from unions.

I did not ask if the graph represent included government workers. But I will tell you what I asked:

How does Germany, a unionized country (works council), with labor rates higher than ours manage to be the second largest exporter of manufactured goods second only to China do it and we, with only 7% can't compete in the global world. And yet we focus on the 7%?

It's not just cars. One of the responses was that German companies do not pay for health care so the America hourly rate including benefits is higher. I chuckled: I guess this is a good reason for Obama care.



We will get to 3%, still lose jobs and what will the excuse be?

Germany industry is highly gov't subsidized. Taxes are thru the roof.

This is something that's talked about a fair amount here - we've seen a lot of small and medium sized business move here because it's cheaper to employ people, even at higher wages, because there's no health insurance to provide. Or at least it's only extended benefits (dental, stuff like that).

First: From your mouth to god's ear.
Second: Unions are only a part of the problem, of course. Myopic corporate and political leadership are far more to blame.

LOL, Milt I don't think that's dog piss you're smelling!

I'm thinking that it's that Obama is putting those bad 'social' policies into hyper-drive. --He didn't invent so many of these socialist ideas (which ALWAYS end badly) but he certainly is a fan.

As Terveen said it is a parallel, the same mentality that brought Detroit down is now in the WH and in the Congressional Majority. Is there much difference between the Chicago Liberal mentality and the Detroit Liberal mentality?

I was in Detroit on a city bus the night the Detroit riot started in 67. I know what happened to Detroit in the following years. Yes the whites fled the city, not for the suburban lawns but out of fear.

All the houses in the white neighborhoods in the city in the early 60's had nice lawns and backyards with fruit trees. For the most part there wasn't a blade of grass out of place, people had pride in their homes. What was happening in Detroit back then was that a black family would buy a house on a white street for an exorbitant amount of money and all the other whites would sell cheap and block by block the blacks would take over. When the blacks did take over a section the section turned to shyte, the houses were run down, the lawns turned to dirt and if a home was empty it was stripped of anything of value. HOW DO I KNOW THIS I SAW IT WITH MY OWN TWO EYES. My Dad took me over to show me a house he lived in as a kid which had become a black area, and the contrast from the white neighborhoods to the black neighborhoods was astonishing..from picture perfect to a disaster area. That kind of blight and crime is what drove the whites out of Detroit.

It only escalated when Detroit got it's first Black mayor and the corruption set in after the 67 riots. All that Federal Urban Development money that was poured into Detroit after the Great Society was enacted in 65/66 has done wonders for Detroit..you can see it everywhere you go in the city..Kinda like the stimulus Bill :)

As I said I saw Detroit BURN in 67...whole sections of neighborhoods burned...Whole neighborhoods of what I went past on that bus that Saturday night were GONE..BURNED TO THE GROUND when I left 2 weeks later...NEVER TO BE REBUILT.

Recently I have taken a look at the Satellite photos of my Grand Parents home in Detroit, it is still there as most of the homes on that street are. However that little cul de sac of street (Molena) backing the Detroit City Airport is an island in a sea of vacant lots for several miles around. You can actually buy a home within a mile of my Grandparents home for a $1000. After looking at the photo I figured out why my Grandparents little street survived..there is a small park at the end of the cul de sac and backing the street is some kind of industrial building, along with a cemetary across Van Dyke. So this little street was an island of safety protected from the ravages that wiped out everything else.

Now you couple that with the decline in the Auto industry and you can see what ya got.

I'm kind of with TABS on this one. Detroit is a microcosm of what is being pushed onto the rest of the country. People are taken care of by the state. People are not properly educated at home or in the schools. There is good reason why 2/3+ of Detroit left to never return.

I also feel if we can find a way to rebuild/reaccomplish Detroit then we can use that model to help rebuild our country. Right now we are going the way of great empires before us. How many here cut their own lawn? How many of us have our own children cutting our lawns and doing our gardening?

In general, as a nation we used to teach responsibility at home. That art is no longer in most people's thought processes. We now feel we are better than the rest and do not have to complete menial chores. We will allow our children to rot on tv and video. The symptoms are all around us. Obesity from lack of activity and increasing caloric intake. Requirements to have immigrants (legal and otherwise) take on jobs we do not wish to do ourselves. We demand $100.00 an hour in pay and want the $1.00 t-shirt.

As a nation, we are lazy and falling apart. Detroit is just a major sign of our symptomology. Nothing more or less. I've been to LA. I've seen so many areas of town that are no different than Detroit. I've worked in the fifth ward in Houston. I've seen NOLA's 9'th ward, been there even. I can take you to the same thing in a hundred large cities in this country and the rest of you could do the same. What are we doing about it?

U Boyz also have to understand sumthin else..my Grand Dad went to work for Ford at the Rouge in 1916. My Grand Dad FOUGHT AND BLED to get the UAW in..Working in the auto factories was no picnic..Ford paid its workers $5 a day in 1910 which was big money for a working man. All the other auto makers bi+ched about how much Ford paid. Yet Ford still had 90% turn over in its work force..no body would stay. So to say the working conditions were abominable is an understatement. Ford also had his own private security force which would grab a guy off the toilette and put him back to work on the line. They also supressed any Union activists. Back in the 20's a good percentage of the working people supported the communists and thought of the Soviet Union as a workers paradise.

The one thing that my Grand Das wanted more than anything else was to make sure his kids were educated so that they wouldn't have to work in one of those fking factories..

Not one of you people have any conception of what it was like, how brutal it was. Quite frankly your all a bunch of fkin pussies that are livin on the backs of what those old timers fought and bled to win for the working man in America. The large Middle Class in America owes its existence to those old timers, they made it possible for U to be Middle Class.

Now the nation and its people have pissed everything away by living on the credit card for 40 years..we done thought we was a rich nation that could afford it all...without consequence..'Oh ain't it a shame a RICH nation like America has 45M people without health insurance." All I can say is the fker who said that is one delusional mtherfker.

Tabs,

I agree with everything that you have stated. I have worked in manufacturing close to 40 years, 30 of the in an automotive related industry. I have traveled to Detroit and other automotive related towns since the 70's. The decline has been steady over the years.

That said, I take exception to you just singling out Obama. There is plenty of blame to spread around here. No one is a virgin.

Chicago has a mayor who has been elected for 6 terms. He will probably will run for a 7th term. His father ran the city from the 50's thru the 70's. Daley senior, ran Chicago like the Communist Party. There was no decent. I don't consider him to be a liberal either.

His son actually has done a great job turning the city around especially in his early terms. Chicago is much more diverse than Detroit. The inner city of Chicago has come back. I don't see that happening in Detroit.

The other interesting thing is:

If you ask a person that lives in the surrounding suburbs of Chicago, they will tell you they are from Chicago. Ask someone who lives in the surrounding suburbs of Detroit, their response will be the name of the suburb rather than Detroit.

I don't mean disrespect Tabs, this isn't a Republican or Democratic thing and it isn't an Obama one either.

I think I have heard myself say adnaseum that the USA was on the road to destruction the minute LBJ put the SS Trust into the General Account in 1968. Every administration whether Republican or Democrat has compounded that decision since then. Obama is just the last in the line and 45 years too late..and he just doesn't get it. So instead of trying to turn the train around he has speeded it up for the cliff ahead.

Tabs,

Your story covers periods from the post WWII to present and thru many administrations from both parties. Certainly before LBJ. I can't soley blame government for the decline of Detroit or any other city or town. The Fed, State and Local Governments do share some of this but there are other factors too. You mentioned them; work conditions, white flight, riots, the genneration of workers wanting a better life, et all.

The Federal Government will not fix Detroit, people do. Thats why I like Dave Bing. He is a business man, a local sports hero and he truly loves the city.

TABS,

I agree with you on the origins of the unions. They were a necessity!!! If you work around ANY type of industry today you should be thankful of the groundbreaking deeds those men AND women did to help turn out a middle class America.

That stated, unions became as greedy as the senior management. Both parties are to share in the blame for the fall of the American manufacturing sector. The union memberships are falling because the specialized manufacturing is going elsewhere. There is a lesson in there for us all.

Now I hate taxation!!! BUT I believe that the individuals who decide to move industries/production to plants overseas and close down US facilities should be subject to a 100% income tax! They should then be able to go and run the facilities where they relocated them.

Man, I gotta get back to work...

The guy had planters put in, in the medians. Aside from that what has he done? He lured Boeing in. That Boeing building is a ghost town. How many jobs did that bring? I think Chicago would be where it is regardless of who was mayor. Every major city in the country was on a role when Chicago was. Daley is a grade A POS. Mr. tunnel vision. $500 million park secured by Gestapo police and a multi billion dollar airport expansion. Meanwhile the south and west sides are more dangerous than Baghdad. The guy screams about guns, yet the silly gun ban was never really enforced and clearly didn't work. The city needs a bigger Police budget, but they're too broke for that. Not looking to flame, I just hate Daley. Any time I visit Chicago it's a cash grab. They made a science out of getting their hands in your pocket.

Hey, I don't live in Chicago or near it, and won't visit it pretty much on principle, but The City still has its hands in my pockets!

The only people I owe anything to are my parents. THEY made it possible for me to be middle class. As for unions, I belonged to two. The last one was the Teamsters when I worked summers with my Dad in a factory shipping warehouse. I got fed up with them the day a co-worker filed a grievance against me for not stopping work the moment that the lunch bell rang.

When the bell rang I had just lifted a carton off of pallet #1 to place on pallet #2. According to the grievance I should have returned the carton to pallet#1 instead of placing it onto pallet#2. Absurd.