Or an Arsonist;)

That is what happens when you let unions & liberals run things...
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How was it allowed to become so bad?
Maybe when times are good is when Infrastructure rebuilding should have been done ?

Not infrastructure, loss of car building jobs.

Car plants can be turned into plane/other manufacturing plants in a jiffy(i.e. WW2).

They can even be turned into car battery plants for Chevy Volt Automobiles, if those batteries were not bought and shipped here from Korea.

Having the domestic mass-manufacturing capacity to produce electric car-sized batteries would, of course, allow for expansion of those vehicle types and make renewable energy systems cheaper...
...thus reducing our dependancy on foreign oil producing nations related to terrorism....
...which justified warentless surveilance of the american public...
...which incidentally is similar to the ONSTAR's(tm) remote door unlocking/remote shutdown/GPS tracking/Bluetooth intercepting/microphone enabling features which come with every new General Motors vehicle.

K???

I, for one, feel very sad for the people that have to live there. Imagine waking up each day with nothing to look forward to, nothing to hope for, and no one to help you make it better. Those scenes, in ones minds, were from much better times in a place that was very alive, very vibrant not so long ago. This is what's happening all over our country in every large city and every small town. I don't know how to change it, but hopefully this town and every town will see the light and bear down with some grit and say, "that was then, and this is now".

I agree, its very sad. Can you imagine joining the UAW 30 years ago at 21 y/o's buying a house paying a mortgage and 30 years later it's worth nothing. Your principle and interest are now completely gone.

America has stopped much of the manufacturing we used to do.

America has stopped making much of the equipment used to manufacture items.

America is stopping making the equipment that makes the equipment used to manufacture items.

America is quickly training others how to manufacture. Once they learn how, they will innovate and will no longer need our assistance to learn what we ourselves are unable to do. That service industry will also start a quick decline.

What made us great was the ability to make things, to innovate, and to have a strong middle class. In Detroit I see what could become of the rest of the country. The workers took everything they could, produced sub-par products, and saw production shift elsewhere. Service industries moved on. Nothing to fund infrastructure and a corrupt powerbase in office. Take a good look at the city. My biggest fear is Detroit is a precursur of things to come for the rest of us if we do not change the direction of this country.

The cause (s) and result (s) are increasingly visable but what can be done to reverse the decline. When I see the mansion you can buy in the inner city for less than $50K I think I would like to move there .Then I think about gangs,methamphetamine labs and gun violence etc etc etc and I give my head a shake.

The city is 2-3X too large for its current population. Detroit could take over whole neighborhoods where the housing is basically intact but largely vacant, using eminent domain. Facelift them and be the only city in the US where you can buy an urban house/townhouse for $15K. With the cost of housing essentially zero, the cost of living would be extremely low and hence the cost of labor could be similarly low. With plenty of cheap commercial and industrial property, centrally located, solid infrastructure and reliable power, Detroit could be the least expensive place in the country to run a business. Telco/data centers, tech support/call centers, light manufacturing, apparel, distribution/logistics, businesses that are essentially exporters and don't depend on a local consumer base. Bulldoze blighted neighborhoods into urban organic farms, community sports fields, skate parks, and other "quality of life" public spaces. Vibrant, cool spots spring up as entrepreneurs are attracted by the low start-up costs and the residents who have decent spending power after their $150/month mortgage payments. The city could be re-born, not overnight, but look at other East Coast cities - many of them went from nastiness (NYC in the '70s?) to revitalization over a couple of decades.

Canada struggles with the foreign ownership of all our resources and manufacturing. BIG brother lives next door. Many/most of our factories are subsidiaries of US companies. We have benefited from that arrangement. We do however have a higher cost of living. We pay higher taxes and have higher prices on most goods when compared to the States. We do have some benefits from our higher taxes ie universal health care.
I,m sure the cost of living is rapidly rising in China right now. We worry that our manufacturing will go to Mexico and Mexico worries theirs will go offshore to "Cheena".
Back to Detroit .The factories that were there made lots of people rich and lots of workers benefited with high paying jobs. What happened to that money? It wasn,t spent on or in Detroit.
I completly agree with the above post by "jyl". The upside potential of Destroit is very good.
How do you finance such a renewal?

How do you take over a city in such decline. Grandma lives in the house which was bought and paid for with Grandpa,s wages from 40 years on an assembly line. The family home is now the only one still occupied in a city block. It,s worth no more than $5000 . What do you do with the displaced owner who now has next to nothing?

It probably has to start locally - by replacing the politicians, laws and policies that oversaw the city's demise.

I read an article some time ago that said that the city will not sell those vacant properties unless the buyer pays all liens, OD taxes etc. That could be a hefty amount. People are not willing to pay those so the property sits. They are stifling the market for money up front. Seems kind of rediculous to me.

If the neighborhood will stay housing, let them keep living there, sell the house back to them for 1c after redevelopment.

If the neighborhood will be bulldozed, give them $5K and a different house.

I don't know if Detroit is where it is because of local political/regulatory decisions, or because its #1 industry has lost huge share to competitors who make their cars in other states. Maybe both. Regardless, bold local leadership will be needed for a recovery to start, and it probably isn't the existing local leaders.

Detroit's plight only underscores what happens when government tries to "social engineer" prosperity for a population of people who actually do not produce anything even close to what they cost.

You're seeing this on a far larger scale (though not as dramatic, because it's spread out all over the country) with residential contractors and subcontractors.

Our economy can only support so many guys toting nail guns making $100k a year in the same way it can only support so many UAW guys making $100k a year plus benefits.

We need workforce retraining and our post-secondary "education" system is woefully unprepared to offer it, having gotten out of the business of trade education (and into the business of liberal indoctrination) decades ago.

Makes it tough on those who've seen their jobs replaced by robotics or by those in cheaper labor markets if all you know how to do is turn screws or swing hammers. Even tougher on those who were (knowingly) overcompensated for said screw-turning or hammer-swinging, thought that the days of "easy money" would never end (thanks to the protections of either unions or government prop-ups of their industries) and therefore never saw the need to bother learning anything else.

What is "the buisness of liberal indoctrination" a euphemism for? I,m guessing a school teacher?

It refers to the current state of our schools where kids are taught that the Pledge of Allegance is wrong, it's not politically correct to refer to the writers of the Constitution as "Founding Fathers" and where it's more important to value feelings than performance. Simultaneously it's okay to pass out rubbers to fifth graders and send kids home from school for wearing t-shirts with the American flag on them because it might offend Mexicans.

All the above examples are real and recent, BTW.

Thought this might stimulate some discussion - here is a quick and dirty estimate of job recovery in the US auto industry over the next 5 years.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1284059899.jpg

My q&d look suggests that, in the next 5 years, auto sales in the US will return to the replacement rate, which I believe is around 14MM units/year (based on number of drivers, age of existing vehicle fleet, useful life of vehicles, and number of vehicles per driver, the last I assume falls to the level of the early 1990s). Assuming the ratio of imported vehicles to domestically-produced vehicles is constant - Asian and European models produced in the US are counted as domestically-produced. Also assuming the industry's efficiency remains far higher than historical levels, but down a bit from current very high levels - most companies in the industry have cut employees so hard that their next move will be to add some back, although they are delaying it as long as they can.

This suggests the US auto manufacturing industry could add back about 210,000 jobs in the next five years. That's the Detroit OEMs like Ford and GM, the foreign transplants like Kia and Toyota and Honda, and the components industry like Magna, Lear, Borg-Warner, etc - note the components industry employs far more people than the OEMs. Which will still leave the industry well below peak employment levels of 2000, makes sense considering auto sales are assumed to be well below the record 17MM+ units of 2000.

This also suggests that the US auto manufacturing industry could hold on to much of the remarkable profit improvement it has achieved in the past couple of years. Many companies in the industry are making more profit and margin now than in 2000, despite units and revenues well below 2000 levels.

Truly, it is a good time to be Capital, in large part because it is a crappy time to be Labor. For the larger, more competitive companies in this country, profits are flowing at record or near-record levels.

Didn't you and I have a discussion about this back in 08? In that discussion I basically said that REPLACEMENT of the fleet was going to be it...and the US car market is only going to expand because of the growing population. Second didn't I say this would be a jobless recovery. That corporations would be doing just fine especially if they had international exposure while the American worker became under employed.

You are just about the best financial analyst on the Board..U should really tell the Boyz just how close to the mark some of my little predictions are..


Detroit's problems started back in the late 60's with the urban redevelopment agency, the Liberal governments that were installed...the declining US auto makers...and the move to right to work states.

Quite frankly I got tired of reading about your Detroit revitalization plan..and had to chock it up in a simplistic way as that U live in the Bay Area...Nancy Pelosi land or Liberal Central.

The cheap housing is there, but falling apart. The factorys are there but falling apart. The centralized water distribution gateway to the midwest is still there.

Union wage/retirement/medical demands are also still there, as is the Michigan taxation system and low international tarriffs.
New tires ain't gonna fix rod knock.

I'll be in little Arabia ... er, Dearborn on an investigation tomorrow (suspicious fire ... go figure :rolleyes: ). Are you driving a rental with decent ground clearance? Did you get the insurance? Maybe we can do a few hot laps with it at the velodrome :D

If you need a laugh, pick up a newspaper. The imprisoned former mayor and son of US Rep Cheeks Kilpatrick is back in the news, as is the wife of US Rep John Conyers and former city council person packing her bags on the way to prison :cool:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1284066797.jpg

Add Colman Young as a topping

Not only that one of the big shots on the Board of Detroit Public Schools is being sued all over the place for exposing and fondling himself at meetings, in his office, etc. Plus, the former Chief of Police and his replacement are being sued for sexual harassment because they were allegedly doing the same detective who got all kinds of raises and promotions and, at her behest, had her enemies demoted. Not to mention the rest (dozens) of the crooked school personell under indictment for pocketing money and charging home improvements to the schools. And lest we forget, what about the county commissioner(s) not paying property taxes because they 'forgot'. Detroit has more problems than simple infrastructure deterioration.

Granted all that - my main point is that, just as getting too optimistic is not a good idea, being too pessimistic is also something to watch out for. Things are usually neither as good nor as bad as people say.

The auto industry is a good example. As tabs said back then, a sales rate far above replacement rate was not sustainable in the long run. But a sales rate far below replacement rate, and everyone losing tons of money, is also not sustainable in the long run. Things were very grim entering 2009, plenty of people said the US auto industry was doomed and they'd all go bankrupt with 1MM jobs lost forever. Well, the industry has gotten back on its feet, most of the stocks went up 5X to 10X from the lows, and I think auto employment will probably go up another 30-40% from here. Just like with TARP, the US govt/taxpayer will probably not get back all of its money, but will probably get back most of it.

If the auto industry can fight its way back, can't the Motor City do the same? Yes, but it will take a lot longer and will probably require all kinds of government action - at the local level, this time.

I've been downtown Detroit the last two days, Woodward and Grand River area. It's strange, nobody on the streets, light traffic, most buildings closed up. Strangely, no trash on the streets at all, I mean none, no graffiti. This is a great backlot for a studio, we can do car chases, burn down houses, literally. Like hey can we burn down those two abandoned houses?", "Sure, why don't you burn down those ten abandoned houses in a row".

I toured the Ford Rouge River plant today, it's pretty cool, you only get to see the final assembly for the F-150, but the place is fairly modern.

I think what JYL said is dead on correct. This city has an opportunity to re-invent itself. Lots of land and building dirt, dirt cheap. if you're a manufacturer or service company you could get land, buildings and labor with probably great tax incentives. Detroit is giving us 40% tax breaks on everything, including the 90% of our crew that is imported from California and send their paychecks back to CA. They think we'll stay here because their so film friendly when the tax breaks end, IMHO, they couldn't be more wrong.

Not a great shot, but I can see this building from my hotel room here in Detroit, it's obviously abandoned. What an amazing feat of enginnering in it's day, now turning to dust. It's a shame.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1284073079.jpg

So you are an arsonist? Just Kidding! If you do it let me know it may be worth the drive down to watch....

That pic you posted is creepy. It's been a while since I've been down that way it looks more like a ghost town than I remember. Detroit could be the birthplace of zombies! LOL!

Kurt Russell isn't that old.... Wait 'till devils night and make it a quazi-documentary.

Thats the old train station isn't it?

A bit off topic, but does anyone recognize the music in the Velodrome video?

I was wondering the same. Good tune. Anyone?