Commercial pilot experience upped to 1,500 hrs

[p911dad]

It looks like the new law on flight safety will severely impact the current flight training industry. Under the rules today, a private pilot on the way up can get a Commercial ticket with 250 hours. Most of these pilots wishing to fly in an airline setting also get their instrument rating and Flight Instructor ticket. Of course the flight training industry for primary students depends on the upward new commercial pilots to fill the ranks of flight instructors, and it is here the new commercial pilots gain their hours to move up to the ATP rating(need 1,500 hours for this). They also try to gain as many turbine hours as possible with the objective of getting to an airline or commuter setting. Flight instructors are generally at the very bottom the heirarchy and pay scale of commercial pilots and most of those with over 1,500 hours are either move up or dedicate themselves to being flight instructors for the love of the teaching, or run an FBO and offer flight training as part of the overall business.
My question: Doesn't it make more sense to require pilots flying in a commuter or airline setting to simply have an ATP(airline transport pilot rating) and leave the other commercial pilots alone? Have I missed something here? There is almost no way to get to 1,500 hours as a private pilot unless you own a plane and have years to get to that level(pilots that fly more than 250 hours per year private are rare). Or have I read the new law wrong?

[KNS]

I heard this today too. I thought what I heard was that you need 1500 hrs to get on with a regional - not 1500 hrs to get your commercial ticket, that's doesn't sound right.

[MT930]

From what I understand you will need 1500 hrs to act as crew member in a Part 121 &125 capacity

Part 121 – Operating Requirements: Domestic, Flag, and Supplemental Operations
Part 125 – Certification and Operations: Airplanes Having a Seating Capacity of 20 or More Passengers or a Payload Capacity of 6,000 Pounds or More

I don't think it has impact on part 135 operations

I don't think it will affect the commercial pilot licensing requirements.

Most young pilots are not ready for the demands of regional type aircraft or fight conditions until 1500 hour mark in my opinion.

20 Years ago no carrier would talk to you until that amount of time. The lack of pilots in the recent years has lowered the bar.

This stems from the Buffalo crash which should have never happened.

[widgeon13]

I believe it's 1500 hrs for ATP certificate.

Upon further investigation this is what I found:

"Requires the FAA to complete a rulemaking to revise commercial pilot requirements and mandates all commercial pilots to have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flight experience (up from 250 hours)."

Really doesn't make much sense to me.

[LeeH]

U.S. Pilots Need More Flight Experience Under Measure - Bloomberg

[Porsche-O-Phile]

There aren't any flying jobs out there anyway (especially those that pay worth a damn) so why does it matter?

[FLYGEEZER]

The truth of the matter is, no job in the business will pay anything. Comair, the JV squad at Delta, was offering A&P's a whopping $11.00 @ CVG to start. Oh yea, and they wanted experienced applicants. I'll bet the jobs are still open. Why anyone would want an airline job in any capacity is beyond me.

[KNS]

Several of the U.S. majors are sending much of their (heavy) maintenance down to Mexico because of the rising cost of labor up here. I had listened to a report on the radio about this and many of the techs couldn't speak English and were having a hard time reading the service manuals which are all printed in English. Scary!

[Embraer]

Finally got the call to jump ship from my airline just the other day. Some of you might remember my So-Cal advice thread...I WILL be heading there for the new job!

Good Riddance Part 121

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by MT930

Most young pilots are not ready for the demands of regional type aircraft or fight conditions until 1500 hour mark in my opinion.

20 Years ago no carrier would talk to you until that amount of time. The lack of pilots in the recent years has lowered the bar.

This stems from the Buffalo crash which should have never happened.

Not necessarily true. I am on the interview board for my airline, and the amount of flight time is inconsequential. The quality of training is what matters. Any monkey can go and sit right seat in a 172 for 1200 hours as a CFI, not flying a single bit, but still meet the 1500 hour requirement.

...and then there can be a Guard or Reserve pilot who has 400 hours (all military). Which candidate do you think is better?

Also....30-40 years ago, some of the Legacy carriers were hiring with a wet commercial certificate. It's all a matter of timing.

I wouldn't say experience was a factor in 9L 3407. The fact was that he was a crappy pilot who had no business in a cockpit. I know guys who had flown with him in the past, and felt he had no business flying. He had a crap training record, littered with pink slips.

...not everybody is cut out to be a pilot.

on the other hand...look for Ab Initio programs to become the next source of pilots in this country.

[air-cool-me]

I agree with the pure hours isn't the whole picture theory.

No amount of time in light aircraft can prepare you to operate a demanding type*.
(transport category aircraft, high performance fighter, ext)

But what an extended period of GA\light 135 can do is help sort out the chaff from the wheat.

This just isn't the fix-all for safety that legislators are hoping for.

Most young pilots are not ready for the demands of regional type aircraft or fight conditions until 1500 hour mark in my opinion.

I am 50-50 on this point. The Colgan captian that killed 50 was 47yo and had 3300 hours. . Its all about the type of experience\maturity\ability not necessarily age.

Expose the right guy to the right experiences and training and he could end up being a quality product at a very young age(for pilots relatively speaking)

[air-cool-me]

FYI I know a few very experienced pilots that are looking for work right now. Highly skilled with outstanding resumes.

Will they ever work for a regional?
> no

Why?
> pay, starting pay is 23$ an hour and FAA mandated max is 1000 FLIGHT hours per year(meaning well over 3000 hours actually at work away from your family)

The public give a flying F*** whos up front?
>not as long as the ticket is at the top of "sort by cheapest" on expedia.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

FYI I know a few very experienced pilots that are looking for work right now. Highly skilled with outstanding resumes.

Will they ever work for a regional?
> no

Why?
> pay, starting pay is 23$ an hour and FAA mandated max is 1000 FLIGHT hours per year(meaning well over 3000 hours actually at work away from your family)

The public give a flying F*** whos up front?
>not as long as the ticket is at the top of "sort by cheapest" on expedia.

Bingo.

I've got over 3,000 hours a good amount of it single pilot IFR in twin-engine airplanes doing Part 135 cargo work. I'm sure I could (if I brushed up and studied up) get into a regional. No way. I got out of that game precisely because of this - it's a sucker's game. The aviation industry is one that's adept at "carrot-dangling". The game they play is "don't worry about the pay right now, think of all the valuable experience you're getting" and "everyone has to pay their dues before they get in the left seat" and "we need to remain competitive so we need everyone to pull together for the good of the company" (translation: lousy pay & no raises). It's not what it used to be. When I was flight instructing I often made more than the guys who had left the flight school to go become "airline pilots" at the regionals. A few came back looking for their old jobs back because it sucked so badly. Me, I just got sick of making $150 or so for an "8-hour" day which was usually about 16 away from home - and I was one of the lucky ones that got to be home every night (admittedly only for a few hours before having to be back at the airport again). It's a grind.

Don't get me wrong - I love flying. When the wheels are in the wells, it's the best job in the world and I miss it terribly but I certainly don't miss all the other B.S. that went along with it - sleeping (poorly) in crappy hotels and layovers, living on fast food, being fatigued all the time to the point your joints ached, being treated like chattel by the company, etc. No thanks. If I want to fly again I'll go get myself a light piston single or twin and rip up the sky an hour at a time. Or maybe I'll find one or two students that are interested in doing it recreationally. As a career I think I'll pass - I have better things to do than sit around dumpy layovers away from home/family living on Taco Bell and McDonald's just so I can log right seat time for 10-15 years (that's what the upgrades are running now) in some RJ where I look at video screens all day, twiddle a few radio knobs and watch the computers fly the airplane.

The best days of "flying as a profession" are over.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

I believe it's 1500 hrs for ATP certificate.

Upon further investigation this is what I found:

"Requires the FAA to complete a rulemaking to revise commercial pilot requirements and mandates all commercial pilots to have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flight experience (up from 250 hours)."

Really doesn't make much sense to me.

Still is for the ATP. The old commercial was 250 or 300, forget which. That allowed you to do squat, usually flying banner two (almost eliminated after 9/11), sightseeing or photography stuff.

This came from several accidents, the Buffalo one being the last. The regionals do not pay anything and get people who will share a flat with 5-10 other people or live at home with Mom and Dad to stay alive.

Above poster is correct, the public do not give a damm and that is part of the rub. You have to pay someone a living wage and this does not happen until you get some hours under your belt and a few type ratings.

Joe A

(PS, just hired a new copilot on Thursday, so there are some jobs out there but not like 3-4 years ago. It is getting better but slowly. Should be better after November when we fire a shot across the bow of the princess and get their attention)

[air-cool-me]

250 hours for people trained under part 61. 190 for part 121.

Someone finding a job up is always good news!

[Sarc]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

The aviation industry is one that's adept at "carrot-dangling". The game they play is "don't worry about the pay right now, think of all the valuable experience you're getting" and "everyone has to pay their dues before they get in the left seat" and "we need to remain competitive so we need everyone to pull together for the good of the company" (translation: lousy pay & no raises). It's not what it used to be.

I certainly don't miss all the other B.S. that went along with it - sleeping (poorly) in crappy hotels and layovers, living on fast food, being fatigued all the time to the point your joints ached, being treated like chattel by the company, etc. No thanks.

For a second there, I thought you were talking about the state of your current profession. That could easily describe a the first 10 years of of my architectural career to a T.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Yes it could - in most cases. But one doesn't have to settle for that. I left flying and went back to doing design work in 2003 and got about a 200% raise for making that move.

I do miss the flying part though. As I said above, once the wheels are in the wells, it's the best job in the world.