Need help with a Remington Model 51 spoon...

[azasadny]

The Colt 1903 Hammerless is covered under C&R, so I'll be able to send it out via UPS, insured...

[azasadny]

When working with these old guns, the Curio and Relics FFL really comes in handy! The license was only $30 and it's good for 3 years. It's already paid for itself for me. I really like these older guns, so for me, this is the way to go!

[azasadny]

Cool cutaway pics of the Remington Model 51...




David fired my pistol today to confirm that it is operational and now he'll ship it to me and I'll go to the range ASAP! I can't wait to see it!

[azasadny]

I just found this on a Remington restorers website. I'm always looking for info on any spoons I own and I keep a folder on the server for each one, loaded with pictures, information and diagrams, manuals, etc... Thank you for making the "lost" pin, I really appreciate it! I'll send you some excellent diagrams I have of the Colt 1903 Hammerless with my spoon when it arrives!

[azasadny]

More info about the Remington Model 51...

The Remington Model 51 was designed by John D. Pedersen prior to the First World War. The first patent application on the gun was filed in 1915. In 1920, seven patents were issued for the weapon. Six went to John Pedersen, and one went to Crawford C. Loomis, both employees of the Remington Arms Company. Between 1921 and 1926, an additional 25 patents were granted for various aspects of the gun's mechanism, most to Pedersen. Many of the patented mechanisms were never utilized in a production gun. One has only to hold the Remington 51 to feel its quality. The first thing you notice is how well the grip fits your hand--the result of extensive testing with hand molds to determine the correct size and shape for the average hand. Similar effort went into calculating the correct grip angle to allow the gun to point naturally. Very few guns feel so much like an extension of the hand as does the Remington 51. W.H. B. Smith says: "With the sole exception of the Luger, and the new German Walther P38, the Walther PPK, Sauer-38 and Mauser HSc (all foreign developments) this Remington 51 is probably the best-balanced, most-instinctive-pointing pistol ever made." Some of the Remington advertising actually described the pistol as "self aiming." R.K. Wilson says the Remington 51 is "...in the opinion of many authorities, the best pocket self-loading pistol ever designed..."

The gun has three safeties: a thumb-operated safety, a grip safety, and a magazine safety. The grip safety locks the disconnector, locks the sear in the hammer notch, locks the slide, and serves two additional functions. Since the grip safety does not pop out unless the gun is cocked, it acts as a cocked weapon indicator. It also serves as a lock open device for the slide (if released when the slide is retracted). Squeezing the grip safety with the slide locked open will cause the slide to close and, if a full magazine has been previously inserted, a round will be chambered. The thumb safety cannot be engaged unless the hammer is cocked, and when in the safe position it locks the grip safety so it cannot be disengaged. Interestingly enough, the thumb safety does not appear on the original patent drawings, though it did appear on the known prototypes. Remington advertised that the gun could be carried safely with only the grip safety in operation, but the thumb safety could be utilized by those who preferred a more positive lock. The Model 51 also has a magazine safety which prevents it from being fired when the magazine is not inserted. The magazine safety did not appear on the prototypes.

The unique mechanism of the Remington 51 is rather difficult to describe in words. It has been labeled as a "momentum block" system and as a "blowback/recoil" system, in an effort to differentiate it from a simple blowback action, a delayed blowback action, or a standard locked recoil action. R.K. Wilson considered it a type of delayed blowback mechanism, and that seems reasonable to me, though others certainly disagree. The gun consists of the usual receiver and slide components, but the breech block is in two parts. Only the rear part of the breech block, against which the rear of the firing pin rests, is an integral portion of the slide. The other half of the breech block is independent of both slide and receiver, and contains the firing pin, firing pin spring, and the extractor. When recoil begins, the slide moves toward the rear. The moveable portion of the breach block moves to the rear with the slide approximately 0.083 inches, and stops, remaining locked to the receiver. Hence, with the shell not yet ejected, the breech is effectively sealed until the bullet exits the barrel and breech pressure drops to a safe level. The slide continues its rearward motion for a further 0.2 inches, whereupon the moveable portion of the breech block is lifted out of engagement with the receiver and effectively becomes part of the slide for the rest of its travel. The cartridge is ejected in the usual manner; a new round is stripped from the magazine and chambered by the returning slide. An advantage of Pedersen's moveable breech block design is that it allows for a lighter slide than a straight blowback operated pistol, and hence an overall lighter weapon.

Remington introduced the Model 51 for the civilian market, producing only 25 in 1918 but ramping up to full production in 1919. Production declined steadily in succeeding years, and ended in 1927. Approximately 54,518 Model 51s were made. The .380 was designated the "Series of 1918."

In late 1943 Major General Kenyon A. Joyce visited Patton at his headquarters in Sicily. He saw that Patton was wearing a revolver and suggested he should have an automatic pistol. Joyce tried to get his brother-in-law to obtain a Remington 51 and send it to him to give to Patton, but apparently the brother-in-law was unable to locate one. So when Joyce returned to the U.S. he contacted Roy C. Swan of Remington to see if he could obtain one. Swan located a used one in Denver and had it refurbished at the Remington Factory. The gun was engraved "To George Patton / From his shooting partner of many years / Kenyon Joyce." Patton had the standard grips replaced with wooden ones with three ivory stars inset. There are a number of photographs of him wearing the Remington: the three stars stand out clearly in old black and white photographs. When he was promoted in 1945 Patton had new four-star grips made. This is the gun he wore for the rest of the war, as well as after he returned to the States.

W.H.B. Smith states that the Model 51's "... manufacture was discontinued, because the introduction of firearms laws made manufacture economically unsound." He is referring to the National Firearms act of 1934, which forced pistol and machine gun manufacturers to register and pay a tax on all sales. But economic factors were involved as well. Sales of the Model 51 were never robust and production ended in 1927. After the market crash of 1929, hardly anyone in the U.S. could afford to buy guns. Revolvers were still considered the only reliable handguns by most shooters, and in the U.S. only Colt continued to manufacture automatics after 1929. By 1932 Remington was losing as much as one million dollars per year, and in 1933 E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Company purchased a controlling interest in Remington and proceeded to reorganize the company. Perhaps this reorganization resulted in the elimination of the unprofitable pistol line. At the end of 1934 Remington posted a modest profit of $142,589. By 1936 the company stock was paying dividends again. But Remington did not manufacture another handgun until 1963 (the XP-100 single-shot). The Model 51 has never been revived.

The "momentum block" mechanism of the Model 51 reduces felt recoil and helps make the gun easier to shoot, more accurate, and lighter. A quick look at the drawing of the moveable breech block on the Model 51 will give an idea of the complex machining required to manufacture it and the slide with which it mates. Built like a watch. These guns were known to function flawlessly.

[azasadny]

Wow! My trade for the Colt 1903 Hammerless worked out well so far! I traded three German Ortgies pistols (.25 and .32) for a tired Colt 1903 Hammerless that was mfg'd in 1907. I'm very happy with the gun, it needs rebluing, but no rust pits or really bad spots. It definitely needs David's (targa911s) TLC! I'll ship it out to him as soon as the Wolff spring kit arrives. I REALLY like the way the Colt feels in the hand, it is well balanced, sturdy and nice!!!

Here it is as it is today... rough...

[targa911S]

Boy Art that is really nice. I would be tempted to leave it as is. A lot of history there on a really old gun in good shape for it's age. Can you post pics of the magazine out of the well? Is the mag marked? perfect original grips. I know you want it to look good, and I can do that but you need to think about it. It's a Colt, it's old, and it's in good shape. It's worth a lot more like it is than if you reblue it. Not that I don't want to do it for you but this needs some reverence.

[azasadny]

David,
I understand, I 'm usually one of the "leave it 100% original" guys myself, but the pics really make the gun look better than it is. There is hardly any blue left on the gun. It's in about the same condition as the Remington 51 finish-wise, but no rust pitting.

My purpose for this gun is to have a nice looking Colt that my wife and daughter feel comfortable shooting and that we take to the range and hopefully, one day I'll pass it down to my daughter. i don't ever plan to sell it and I'm very smitten by it already! Someday, maybe I'll spend the $ to get a very nice original one that I'll keep 100% original , but this one will be used and taken care of, just like the Remington.

I'll take pics of the magazine tomorrow. It has a nylon follower and looks too good to be original, so I'm thinking it's an aftermarket. It does have the .32 Colt on the bottom, like I've seen on the originals. I've never held or seen another Colt 1903 up close, so I don't know what's original and what's not...

I would really like to get it sorted out, reblued , then look for pearl grips for it, then it will be my "pimp gun"!

[targa911S]

Nylon follower? Plastic wasn't even invented in 1907. Most of the original mags were two toned. Blued at the bottom and case hardened at the top. Although some were not, most were. Get an original clip if this is not original. Yes you will pay through the azz for it but worth every penny. Just from looking at the pics I can tell it's not original as it does not fit properly in the well. I know these guns well. You will want an 08 in .380 next. They are absolutely with out a doubt my favorite pistols. If you decide to blue it I will not blue the trigger or the safety as they are still in the original nitre blue (peacock) and that is really cool. This one would be worth the extra time and expense to slow rust blue to get it back to the original colors. A lot more work on my end but really worth the effort. It would be more of a dark charcoal gray rather than the deep black we just did to the 51. With the metal in that good condition it will be less filing and finishing. Just my .02

[fred cook]

Art,

Nice! Especially for one over 100 yrs old! I know a shop in Marietta, Ga. that can/will do a rust blue if you are interested. They don't move very fast, but do excellent work.

The magazine, if it is original, will be "two toned". That is, the bottom 2/3rds or so will be blued and the top 1/3rd will be left "bright". The top mag in the picture below is an original. Also, note the two long "stamp" marks at the bottom of the mag. Every Colt mag for the 1903 .32 and for the 1908 .380 pistols have these same stamping. Hope this helps. This 1903 was made in 1914. The main difference between your pistol and this one is that your gun has a removeable barrel bushing and mine does not.

[targa911S]

I rust blue all the time. Let's not forget that I primarily restore old SXS shotguns. I know the process well. very time consuming but worth the wait. I did the 51 in hot salt as that is the way it would have been done originally.

[azasadny]

I'll do my best to get a "real" mag for the gun as mine is definitely an aftermarket one and I have not had good luck with aftermarket mags, except for MecGar. The only person I would trust my guns with is David, so his plan for the gun will be the one I choose. The bluing is almost completely off the gun, but the metal is smooth and un-pitted with just a few scratches/gouges in it, although not too bad for a 104 year old gun.

It feels great in the hand and it has the heft of the Walther PP, which I really like. After this one, I'll look for a 1908 in .380, but I needed a gun in .32 as I have several thousand rounds of .32 and no other pistol that uses that cartridge except for my friend's Walther, and I hope to get that pistol from him as he has no interest in the gun whatsoever.

I tool the Colt apart last night and it's clean and smooth inside, very little wear but the pin in the front slide falls out and I don't want to lose it! Very cool design, I'm very, very impressed so far!!

[fred cook]

cut in on Dave's business, but I did not know if he did blueing other than the hot salt blue. I will go on record to say that the Rem 51 turned out very nice! Now, on to the Colt! Good luck with the new project!

Art, I put your "package" in the mail a couple of days ago. You should be getting it soon.

[azasadny]

Fred,

Thank you! That is too kind of you. What would I do without my "Pelican brothers"? You guys are simply the best!!

[targa911S]

Fred, no worries. It's not a business for me. I'm a hobbyist but having restored close to 100 SXS's over a few years, I have gotten really good at rust bluing. I'm playing with nitre bluing now too. Thanks for the comps on the 51. All I did was the prep work the actual tanking was done by a friend of mine that does it professionally. I do his rust bluing and he does my hot blue in kind. I have done rust bluing for a museum in NY that features LC Smith shotguns too.

[azasadny]

I field stripped the Colt last night and got some Hoppes in the barrel to sit. I cleaned it up this AM and the barrel is pretty cruddy, but the rest of the Colt cleaned up really well. I lubed it up and reassembled it, which is a little tricky for a first-timer, but not too bad. The mag is definitely aftermarket as it doesn't look like the ones that Fred posted pics of and the nylon follower was a dead giveaway!

I woke up with a migraine headache, but I took my Relpax and the headache is gone! What a miracle that medicine is!

[targa911S]

How are the lands on the rifling? Dirty is one thing shot out is another. Rifling in these guns is big and very distinct. When you shoot it check the casing for any signs of chamber wear, bulging, splitting, or discoloration is a sure sign of an over sized chamber. Barrels for the first series are hard to find.

[azasadny]

David,

The barrel has nice lands and grooves, no excess wear seen, but there was light pitting and dirt/corrosion. After I cleaned the barrel, it looks much better. I really, really like the gun. so far, the Remington 51 and colt 1903 are my favorites from an engineering and design perspective. I want to shoot it to see if it feels and shoots as good as the Walther PP, I'm betting that it will!

[targa911S]

PP's are nice, but I think the 03 may have an edge. Got you C&R today so the 51 will be on it's way monday.

[azasadny]

David,
Thanks! Here are more pics of the 1903 that I took today... They make the gun appear to have more finish intact than it actually has...