Active duty military - need your opinion re PCS

cantdrv55 · 12-06-2010, 05:38 PM

Our wonderful nanny is a military wife who's husband just got PCS orders to Kadena AFB. He has just two years left on his first enlistment and this will be their forst overseas assignment. He just received his orders and they are telling him he must report to Japan by mid-January. They are also telling him that he must extend his enlistment two years as the tour is a four year assignment. They say he has no choice but to extend if he intends to stay in the USAF. If he decides to forego the extension, he will not be allowed to re-up in ANY branch of the military once his tour is up. Does this sound like BS to you too?

I remember way back when I separated from the USAF. I was bombarded with false info about how hard the civilian job market was at the time and if I "got extremely" lucky and actually land a job, it would be one without benefits. Even with the selective re-enlistment bonus my career field offered, I decided to get out anyway. Got a great paying job (for a 22 y/o) with benefits, utilizing my military electronics training, while still on leave. I really liked being in the military except for the occasional disinformation.

So, are my nanny and her husband being fed a line of bull?

crustychief · crustychief's Garage

I am not active duty anymore but it is common to have to extend an enlistment for orders. Not so sure about not being allowed to re-enlist. They could discharge him for "convenience" though.

cantdrv55 · 12-06-2010, 05:53 PM

I had to extend two months because I was on a remote tour in South Korea and didn't want to separate there. They're asking him to extend two years!

crustychief · crustychief's Garage

My best friend was denied a retirement request because he extended two years for shore duty.

gsmith660 · 06:46 PM

When I got out I had to extend 2 years to put on my anchors and go to the commissioning crew of the Seawolf I deferred and got out they gave me crappy evals and lowered my re-enlistment code because they were mad at me but didn't do anything to prevent me from reupping in some other service. If he hasn't done anything to warrant a dishonorable or has good evals they can only threaten and harass but cant give a I think RE-4 re-enlist code without justified cause and that would be lots of non judical punishment or a courts-martial but I could be wrong. I just read there are other reasons to get a RE-4 but usually it is for being bad.

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

Nothing to add to the mandatory extension thing, but I've been to Kadena, and I sure wouldn't want to spend 4 years there.

Of course that was 20 years ago, it may be Club Med now...

cbush · 12-07-2010, 03:59 AM

Sounds like BS. Have him call a recruiter and ask. Yes he would have to extend to do the overseas assignment. It would be an USAF call if they decided to not let him re-enlist if he declined this overseas assignment, but you can't force folks to reenlist.

The part about not being able to join any service really sounds wrong. But he could confirm that with a recruiter.

masraum · 12-07-2010, 04:34 AM

My dad was in the military. I got to travel with him. I can't imagine passing up a chance to travel. Granted, I didn't have to work in/for the military, maybe I'd change my tune if I had.

I REALLY miss the travel.

Seahawk · 12-07-2010, 05:09 AM

First of all, I was a Navy guy, so most of what I can offer in the way of advice needs to be vetted from an Air Force perspective.

To start, if he has any reservations that he is being given half truths or not the complete story from his enlisted "detailer" (a Navy term that essentially means the person who will manage his orders and career progression) he has a few options he needs to explore:

- In the Navy every squadron has a Command Master Chief (E-9) that helps young men and women evaluate their next set of orders. I am sure that the AF has a similar arrangement, if not at the unit level then certainly on base, etc. He needs to go get that council ASAP.

- The term in the Navy is, "needs of the Navy", which essentially means that the system doesn't care about the individual filling the billet, the system wants it filled.. I was an officer detail at the Bureau of Naval Personnel and we had "hard fills", or must fill orders and I had to find someone, usually soon, to fill that set of orders. Only once did I have to impact a persons career with the needs of the Navy. The young man in question may indeed be facing the AF's version of need.

- Minimum Activity Tour(s). Another Navy term, but I am sure the AF has the same constraints. Essentially, the service will not allow the detailer to fill a slot if the individual has less time remaining on active duty than the MAT requirement. If I recall, an overseas move is a two or three year MAT. There are a lot of reason for MAT, mostly cost...it is expensive to move a family overseas. When I was faced with writing orders for a naval officer that was eligible to retire within the MAT requirement for a set of orders, acceptance of the orders meant he or she could not retire before the MAT...basically an automatic extension beyond the retirement date.
I know it is confusing, but if the officer did not want to extend his retirement date to the MAT, I could not write the orders and send him there...I had to find a set of orders with a lesser MAT requirement. In the case of your guy, they are essentially telling him he must extend his enlistment to the MAT.

- Concerning other services not bringing this young man on board should he choose not to take the orders and switch services? Here the news is good and bad. Legally, they are full of Bravo Sierra and frankly, in my mind, should be punished. The system should not support such crap.
However, practically he is in a pickle. Every enlisted person and officer in every service is graded and ranked against their peers, at least once a year and at the end of each tour as they depart for the next duty station. There are subtle ways to make your guy appear to be a less than desirable service member and therefore hurt his chances for an inter service transfer. It is not fair, is a pracice I detest, but I have seen it done.
The worst part is that detailers have the ability to write notes on the service members electronic file. These notes are private and confidential and the service member does not have access to them. So, your guys detail could also tube him in this manner, effectively stunting his growth potential in the AF. Again, not fair, but there it is.

His best option at this point is to educate himself on the AF's personnel manual, available online. Unfortunately, detailers often obscure the truth to fill billets. I did not, but I watched it done. Detailers are under a lot of pressure to feed the personnel beast and often do not honorably, which is definitely the case here.

Again, make sure he does his homework, understands the risks and gets council from a senior enlisted person he trusts.

Wish him luck for me.

Best.

Rot 911 · 12-07-2010, 05:44 AM

Someone is either lying to him or he is confused. For a married person there are two types of PCS overseas, accompanied with your spouse or unaccompanied. The unaccompanied tour is usually substantially shorter than an accompanied tour. I think what the AF is telling him is that if he wants his wife to accompany him on this tour he will have to extend his enlistment by two years. If he chooses not to then the tour will be two years, but unaccompanied. They can't force him to voluntarily extend, but can extend his service date if a "stop gap" order is in place.

tops911 · 12-07-2010, 07:32 AM

As a Command Sergeant Major of an artillery battalion in the Army, I'll offer the following.
There could be some truth to what they are being told. I have Soldiers now who are on assignment and they ether have to extend or reenlist to meet the time in service requirement for the assignment. If they don't extend or reenlist the Soldiers will have to sign a declination of continued service statement (DCSS). The DCSS may prevent someone from joining another service later, I don't know. However, as it stands now once signed it will stop any reenlistment or extension, the Soldier HAS to get out.
We are not hurting for Soldiers so the standards are tighter. As an example my battalion completed it's annual reenlistment mission in about 40 days. My brigade was done with the mission in 50 days. We cant reenlist anyone but Soldiers who need to reenlist for time in service requirements for an assignment. All other re-enlistments have stopped until 1 Feb, for my battalion and brigade.
Rather long winded but this is how it is right now for me and my guys.

gsmith660 · 12-07-2010, 07:48 AM

Hey Top thanks for your service BTW so is this a change due to the economy going south or due to the war starting to wind down? As I recall right after the ultra patriotic 9/11 feeling wore off the military as a whole suffered on it's reenlistment/enlistment quotas. I wouldn't change anything on what I did because I wouldn't have my beautiful family that I have now but I came close to going the reserve route a friend that I got out with we both would have been E-7's went that route and is now a Commander O-5.

tops911 · 12-07-2010, 07:59 AM

gsmith660,
I think it's a combo of the crappy economy and that the deployments are going to slow down. Well for some anyway, I'm in Afghanistan now. I go home in Jan 2011 and will deploy in the fall of 2012 back to Afghanistan......
I think the economy is a bigger factor right now, maybe more than the deployments and dwell time. We can afford to be picky on who can stay in with the current situation.
There was a time where only high school grads could enlist (not even GEDs), then during the bad part of the Iraq war we were taking convicted felons (with wavers). That was a batch of bad individuals for a couple of years.
Anyway that is just my experance and opinion.

KevinP73 · 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcon5

Nothing to add to the mandatory extension thing, but I've been to Kadena, and I sure wouldn't want to spend 4 years there.

Of course that was 20 years ago, it may be Club Med now...

+1 Americans were VERY unwelcome on the island the last I heard . I was there (40years ago as a dependant) and it was a great place to be back then.

zipinitaly · 12-07-2010, 08:10 AM

Ok...I just retired in March after 20 yrs in the AF, so I know the rules.

Here is the scoop:

He does have to extend, Kadena is an accomplanied assignment, he can do 3 (Long tour) or 4 (Extended Long tour) years there.

YES, if he was a VOLUNTEER for that assigment, he cannot turn it down. In other words, if he asked for it...he has to go.

I would go in a second..but I like to travel and make the most of every location I was lucky enough to live in. Also, like I said I just retired in Mar, I just now found work, starting in Jan. I wouldn't get out w/the economy like it is. I could have never retired w/out my wife's paycheck.

Seahawk · 12-07-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipinitaly

He does have to extend, Kadena is an accomplanied assignment, he can do 3 (Long tour) or 4 (Extended Long tour) years there.

In other words, if he asked for it...he has to go.

First, Top, thanks for all you do.

Second, Zip, that is bizarre..."if he was a VOLUNTEER for that assignment, he cannot turn it down."

So, the AF calls a kid and then whatever opinion the kid has becomes law?

F'ed up.

gsmith660 · 12-07-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipinitaly

Ok...I just retired in March after 20 yrs in the AF, so I know the rules.

Here is the scoop:

He does have to extend, Kadena is an accomplanied assignment, he can do 3 (Long tour) or 4 (Extended Long tour) years there.

YES, if he was a VOLUNTEER for that assigment, he cannot turn it down. In other words, if he asked for it...he has to go.

I would go in a second..but I like to travel and make the most of every location I was lucky enough to live in. Also, like I said I just retired in Mar, I just now found work, starting in Jan. I wouldn't get out w/the economy like it is. I could have never retired w/out my wife's paycheck.

I agree with Seahawk I was assigned to the commissioning crew for the Carl Vinson but could not see me on a bird farm so I Volunteered for Subs that day but I had the option to go surface right up to the day I left to report to duty I know this because I was asked at prototype training. I had a ROTC scholarship also that I lost the day I qualified at prototype I got notified of the scholarship the day after I qualified thats where the needs of the Navy came in and they said too late.

Kaliv · Kaliv's Garage

If he doesn't believe what he is being told...he can always look it up himself. The publication he probably wants is AFI 36-2110.

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI36-2110.pdf

Secondly, I believe you said this was his first enlistment, which makes him a non-career airman. There is a difference between being a FTA and a Career Airman, especially when it come to re-enlisting.

Third, his AFSC may play a role in re-enlisting as well. Something they may be able to hold over his head is his CJR. Without a CJR, you aren't going to be able to re-enlist. And if they are looking to make cuts in his AFSC, then that is something they may look at.

Fourth, I still believe the Blue to Green program is in effect. Although I'm not 100% sure, this doesn't sound like anything that would keep him from joining another service. And for that matter, it doesn't sound like anything that would keep him from the Guard or Reserves if he wishes to do that.

Other things he may want to look into is COT (Continuous Overseas Tours). That may have some outs for him. Also look under both deferments and reclamas.

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

I just finished reading With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa and noticed for the first time that the landing beaches for the Battle of Okinawa in WW2 were essentially at Kadena, which was a Japanese military airfield at the time.

I did not know that.

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Standard practice to require one to extend or reenlist (best option if in a bonus field) to accept an assignment...otherwise you get out at the end of your enlistement. If he refuses to extend, he will likely get a short tour in the desert that will fit within his remaining time instead (that he cannot turn down).

As far as switching to another service after he gets out...that is up to him and the other service...but there is a waiting list...and why would they want someone who will not accept an overseas assignment? What does he think he joined, a country club? We are at war