Happy Birthday to an Old Friend

[Jeff Higgins]

100 years old and still going strong - the Colt Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911 (later M1911A1). Name one other marginally complex mechanical device developed 100 years ago that remains at the head of its class as the preferred tool for its application. The old warhorse has aged quite well - quite well indeed.

[RPKESQ]

Jeff, just to give you a hard time...................

single action revolvers
single shot rifles
bolt action rifles
double barrel shotguns
single barrel shotguns
pump action rifles
pump action shotguns
double rifles
Maxim patten machine guns

Not to mention many other mechanical machines.

[porsche4life]

How many in that list are designs of god, I mean JMB....

[Joe Bob]

Gatling gun.....

[mossguy]

Thanks for posting that, Jeff!

Best,
Tom

[Jim Bremner]

The 1911 turns 100 this year.


I turn 45 this year.

Coincidence? I think NOT!

[Bill Douglas]

And doesn't look a day over 21.

[azasadny]

I love my Remington Rand M1911A1's!

[UconnTim97]

Someday I will find a way to justify adding one to my spoon collection, someday...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Jeff, just to give you a hard time...................

single action revolvers
single shot rifles
bolt action rifles
double barrel shotguns
single barrel shotguns
pump action rifles
pump action shotguns
double rifles
Maxim patten machine guns

Not to mention many other mechanical machines.

Yes, time moves at a different pace in the world of firearms. One of the things that I find so endearing about them. While we do see our share of "fads" coming and going (per the inmittable Steve Garbe, "smokeless powder is a passing fad"), time and tenure sees the cream rise to the top.

Just for fun, to run down your list:

The single action has been arguably improved with the introduction of the Ruger. Not much, mind you, and certainly not in fit and finish. Its coil spring action and ability to actually carry six rounds are incremental improvements.

Ah, single shot rifles - my true joy. I'll agree on this one. The Ruger is, again, arguably an "improvement", but I really don't think so. A worthy continuation, but no improvement.

Bolt actions - yup, they reached their zenith in 1898, with some improvements continuing until 1937. It's been all downhill from there.

Double barrel shotguns - check. Not much to be done with these, and the era of relatively common excellence is behind us.

Single barrel shotguns - the top rung of this ladder is the trap gun. We should all be happy to have one just like great grand dad's.

Pump action guns/rifles - yawn. I'm not sure when the "best" were made. I'm sure long before the modern plastic camo versions.

Double rifles - yes, the classic designs have never been improved upon. It might be sacriledge to even try.

And one you forgot - the ubiquitous lever gun. They quit getting better back in the '90's as well - the 1890's.

As far as other "machines", I think of the model T, the steam locomotive, the manual typwriter, and other contemporaries of the 1911. Most have been at least somewhat improved since those days.

Anyway, the 1911 has endured a century of challenges from young upstarts, every one claiming to be "improved" in some way. I've lost track of how many have come and gone in my lifetime alone. It's modern-day resurgence, being discovered as it is by a whole new generation, speaks volumes. It's not popular because it is old and quaint - it's popular because it still does the job, arguably better than anything since. Here's to another 100 years.

[MattKellett]

Jeff - without knowing anything about firearms or this one in particular....

Has the design of this firearm changed in that time - by this I mean, is it built exactly the same as it was 100 years ago, assembly, materials, everything.

If that's the case then it really is quite remarkable. There have of course have been machines or devices that were designed 100 years ago that still function fine, but I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find something that is still manufactured today, that hasn't changed in some way from when first released 100 years ago.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes Matt, it is still built exactly as it was 100 years ago. There was an "A1" variation (in 1927 or so?) that changed the shape of the mainspring housing from flat to curved and shortened the trigger. These parts interchange from the 1911 to the 1911A1 and back, with modern shooters simply choosing their preference. Most shooters today prefer the original flat housing and long trigger. Other than that, there have been no changes whatsoever. Parts are entirely interchangeable form the guns made today to those made 100 years ago (maybe with some fitting of close tolerance parts). So, yes - identical in every way.

That said, there are too many aftermarket geegaws made to fit these guns, and complete clone pistols available today to even count. These things can be "hot-rodded" like any car. Alas, like any car, many of these aftermarket "improvements" are anything but - at best they are more "show" than "go", at worst they are downright dangerous. Folks do love to modify these, though.

So, the modern spectrum of 1911's runs the gamut of entirely original in every way to barely recognizable hot-rods. Think of the original 911 up through the 935 or 959 - same idea.

[MattKellett]

Incredible! That's really a testament to superb design and engineering. In this day and age, we are unlikely to see a design to perform and last as long as this.

I would assume that the value of these firearms is dependent on who it was manufactured for and the time of manufacture. Do US Government issued firearms command a greater value?

Thanks for sharing and lastly, do you have one?

[Jeff Higgins]

Values vary darn near exponentially with these. Good, servicable examples can be had for a few hundred dollars, while the most collectable examples go into the five figure range. You are correct in that value is affected by who it was made for, when it was made, and, additionally, who made it. A number of unlikely manufacturers jumped in to help during WWII, like Ingersol-Rand, Smith-Corrona, Ithaca, Remington, and others (I may have my Garands and 1911's mixed up as far as manufacturers - tabby, you out there?).

Yes, I have one, and just one. I've had a number of them in various states of modification, from a number of manufacturers, from original GI Colts to full-on "race guns". My current example is a plain Jane, mil spec 1911A1 from the Springfield Armory, bought new in the late '80's. Nothing fancy. I've kept it because it is in original military guise, has no collector value (so I can shoot the bejeebers out of it with a clear conscience), and is one damn fine shooter. It's devoured literally tens of thousands of rounds in the 20-some years I've had it.

[Jim Bremner]

Values vary darn near exponentially with these. Good, servicable examples can be had for a few hundred dollars, while the most collectable examples go into the five figure range. You are correct in that value is affected by who it was made for, when it was made, and, additionally, who made it. A number of unlikely manufacturers jumped in to help during WWII, like Ingersol-Rand, Smith-Corrona, Ithaca, Remington, and others (I may have my Garands and 1911's mixed up as far as manufacturers - tabby, you out there?).


You nailed all but signal.

Garands for WWII Springfield Armory and Winchester. Post WWII Harrison & Richardson (HRA) and International Harvester! I have 3 of the 4 makers. The hard one to find is the International Harvester. Beretta made them in Italy as well after WWII I missed one by minutes!

[jpachard]

Originally Posted by MattKellett

Jeff - without knowing anything about firearms or this one in particular....

Has the design of this firearm changed in that time - by this I mean, is it built exactly the same as it was 100 years ago, assembly, materials, everything.

If that's the case then it really is quite remarkable. There have of course have been machines or devices that were designed 100 years ago that still function fine, but I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find something that is still manufactured today, that hasn't changed in some way from when first released 100 years ago.

Manufacturing techniques and materials have changed drastically. Having spent some time in the Colt facility, there are many new manufacturing procedures which are in place today, many for the better. The design remains the same though.

As far as other firearms that are nearly as old, the Browning M2 is coming up on 100 years as well.

[mossguy]

[Jeff Higgins]

Manufacturing techniques have indeed changed drastically but, in the case of the 1911, the materials most certainly have not. Not in the least. At least not with the 1911 and 1911A1.

Modern variations are available in stainless steel. Some even come with aluminum frames. The traditional all carbon steel models are, however, still very much available. Some are primarily machined from bar stock the old fashioned way, some are primarily investment cast, some are a mix of the two manufacturing techniques. So, while production techniques have been modernized with some manufacturers, materials remain as they were in 1911. Steel. No plastic crap on these guns.

[jpachard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Manufacturing techniques have indeed changed drastically but, in the case of the 1911, the materials most certainly have not. Not in the least. At least not with the 1911 and 1911A1.

Modern variations are available in stainless steel. Some even come with aluminum frames. The traditional all carbon steel models are, however, still very much available. Some are primarily machined from bar stock the old fashioned way, some are primarily investment cast, some are a mix of the two manufacturing techniques. So, while production techniques have been modernized with some manufacturers, materials remain as they were in 1911. Steel. No plastic crap on these guns.

Agreed, I wasn't clear about the materials improving. While they are the same our ability to make better alloys and hold tighter tolerances in the chemical composition of the said alloys has gone a long way to improve barrel longevity and performance.



Cheers, James

[tabs]

A Colt 1911 US Navy made in 1913 is nearly new condition sold for $7200 on 1/1/11 in Matoon, Ill.

Two WW2 Singer contract 1911 A1's sold in the fall of 2010 for apx $80,000 and the other for $40,000.

US Military 1911's and A1's do go for substantially more money than the Commericals.