ferrari 456GT

[stevepaa]

Anyone know about these? Maintenance, reliability?

or a 348

Just thinking of an altenative to another porsche, if that is possible.

[McLovin]

Let me preface this by saying I am a long time 70s and 80s Porsche owner, and multiple 80s Ferrari owner (I'm a child of the 80s). I currently have an 80s V8 Ferrari which I would like to sell, but will not even bother trying right now, in this market (more on that later).

Anyways,

First, a long time Porsche guy looking for an "alternative" to a porsche and getting a Ferrari is almost always unsuccessful. (For example, Wayne tried it, Motion tried, it, neither I doubt would buy another).

Part of the reason is the cars just aren't as well built as Porsches. They aren't as durable, have many bizarre and arbitrary parts pricing and availability issues. They aren't as fun to drive b/c for the most part they are too heavy. They are harder to DIY b/c for the most part Ferrari owners are not DIY'ers, at least not on any level even approaching the ballpark of Porsche owners. So there's not a lot of DIY support, parts support, etc. (To be fair, there are some Ferrari DIY'ers that have done/are doing some AMAZING things. But they are few and far between. For the most part, the average Ferrari owner, even for the 80s V8 cars, are too afraid to even do something like change their own oil. Some are even afraid to wash their cars with water. I kid you not. That has been subject of serious debate - whether to use water to wash the car).

The cars look better than they drive, and their reality doesn't match their mystique, for the most part (certainly for the models you have listed).

And then there is the buying and selling experience, which with Ferraris is THE WORST.

As a buyer, you have to deal with a lot of dishonesty, you really have to watch your back. Prior to the digital odometers, it seems like almost all Ferraris have inaccurate mileage showing. With the lesser value models like you listed, there is a ton of deferred maintenance, and some real costly dogs out there. It's just a really slimy scene out there.

As a seller - well, you don't want to be a seller. Seriously, in 25+ years of buying, owning, selling BMWs, Porsches and MBs, it has always been a pleasure on the buy/sell side. Never any real problems with buyers, no weirdos, etc. I think that's because all those weirdos are too busy "looking" for Ferraris. And so many "buyers" (I use the term loosely, because there is a huge population of self-proclaimed Ferrari "buyers" who spend years looking, but never actually buying anything) have these truly bizarre notions. "You changed the oil on your $28K 348 YOURSELF! Well, no way I'm going to buy that car!" "What, you haven't used only made in Italy towels to wipe it down?!??")

In sum, IMO 98% of DIY "Pelican types" who think they are bored and want to "try something different" will end up being unhappy and out a bunch of money. (I know there are a few here that are crossovers and are happy with it. That is rare, though).

But to your specific cars:

Both are not big value, popular models, and are way, way down in value right now. The 456 I don't know much about, other than they seem to go very low in price right now, and as a later-ish model V12 I'd guess there is a potential for big repairs. I don't know much about them b/c never been interested in a big fat heavy complex car like that.

The 348, I actually like, but it is considered somewhat of the "black sheep" of the 2 seater V8s. In a way, it's like the 90-94 964. Most people prefer either the car that preceded the 348 (the 328, liked for its relative "rawness" simplicity reliability and ease of maintenance) or the car that came after it (the 355, liked for its improved looks and performance). B/c of that, their value is way down.

I like the 348 b/c IMO it can actually be fairly reliable. They have a known problem with the gearbox, which can cause it to lunch itself and seems like a very expensive repair (roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the current value of the entire car). It uses a Motronic injection system like a Carrera, but it's a dual system (basically 2 separate DME systems).

I follow Ferrari pricing and trading pretty closely, and I've been very surprised. Every time I've thought it was nearing a bottom in the past couple years, it's crashed through that. Pretty shocking, actually. Right now, I know of nice '95 and up 355s that can be had in the 30s, some probably in the low 30s. A 348 is always going to command less. Right now, I'd not pay over high 20s for a 348. The market for the 348/355/456 etc. is just absolutely dead at this time.

[stevepaa]

thank you.

I started with a 60 MGA, then 69 BMW 2002, then 69 912 for 20 years, and have had my 92 964 for ten years.
I went looking at 993 TT and may end up with one, but I was just wondering about other possibilities.

any comments on 2002 NSX

[Rick Lee]

I have driven one 348 and it was not nearly as nice as my 993 and surely cost a ton more. I have driven one 355 and loved it, but at that time they were still well north of $60k. I have seen some serious DIY projects for both models on Ferrarichat.com, but those guys are a rare breed and not nearly as common as the Porsche DIY'ers. Never been around the 456's.

I know a guy with about 30 Ferraris and, obviously, money is no object for him. And that's sort of how you have to be with those cars. If you want to drive a Ferrari, you have to own two because one is always down for repairs. He ended up hiring away the crew from the local Ferrari dealership and opened up his own shop for those guys to maintain his fleet. Seems like he always had them coming over to trailer this or that car to the shop and it was never less than $5k a pop, so he decided to make them his own crew. Can't own these cars on a budget.

Another guy in VA owns three garages that specialize in high-end European cars and he had a 355 for a while. He ended up selling it before a major service was due. I asked him why he couldn't DIY it or have one of his shops do it. He said it was just unaffordable. If a guy like that (and Wayne) say they a pain in the ass, then mere mortals like myself could never handle owning one.

[tabs]

Back in the early 1970's there was a movie called "A NEW LEAF" with Walter Matheau and Elaine May. Matheau had a Ferrari 275 GTB in the movie....He was asked how many times a week was his Ferrari in the shop, his reply was, "Twice a week." Then he was queried how many times a week did he drive it, his reply was "Twice a week."

And that is why I collect spoons and not cars...

[javadog]

It's not all gloom and doom in the Ferrari world. I've owned 2 of them and both were as reliable as any of my Porsches. They cost a little more to maintain, although there is nothing about them that makes them impossible to work on for the average guy, if you are inclined to do so. There is quite a bit of knowledge and support on Ferrarichat.com.

Having said that, the 348 is one of the least popular of the recent models. There are a few things that crop up as problems. I'd suggest you look on the Ferrarichat site for specifics. The interiors don't wear well and that's probably the biggest issue for most owners of that model.

The 456 is a better car but also has a few problems, the worst having to do with the windows in the doors. Again, a simple search would tell you all you need to know.

I had no problem selling either of my cars (the last one sold two months ago, for well above average market value.) They were nicer than average and had low miles and that sort of car always can be sold. It's the average or below-average car that is difficult to sell. Of course, that's true of any brand.

I find the comment about odometer fraud to be amusing, considering how much easier it is to change the speedometer on a 911 from the same era, than on any Ferrari. Let's just say that you want to look hard at the records of any used car.

JR

[speedracing944]

If I recall Ferrari keeps tight reins on who can work on their cars buy holding back on who can buy correct diagnostic tools. For instance you need a $20,000 diagnostic tool to trouble shoot the integrated computer management that is even if they would sell it to a DIY wrencher, which they won't. The 456 is a pretty car and a good bargain right now but I think there is a reason. The older pre '90s Ferraris appear to be more DIY friendly even including the Testarossa. Mechanical parts are still expensive but at least the cars can be worked on by mere mortals. Heck even the major maintenance can be performed but the engine needs to be dropped. Thank goodness this was taken into consideration during the design and only takes a couple hours to do.

Speedy

[sc_rufctr]

My neighbor has been DIY-ing a Testarossa from the late 80s for over 10 years.

He does everything. I gave him a hand when he was changing the clutch. I must say I was impressed by the engine and transmission.
Beautiful castings and quality fittings.

It has a fabulous cream leather interior that seems to have held up very well.
The leather is worn and creased but it still looks good. The paint is just OK but he has hod some work done to the front of the car.
About fuel consumption? Not as bad as you may think. About twice that of my P car.

The reality is he drives it on average once or twice a month. Less than 3000km a year. Oil changed every 6 months regardless of Kms traveled.

Ridiculous when you think about it but he loves it so why not?

[Britwrench]

The last true "DIY" Ferrari was the 328.

Given the choice, the 456 would not be very high on my list.
The 550 Maranello is much better anway.

Experiences of the 456 models (not mine I have to add) have been interesting:
1. Less than 12k miles, engine let go (under warranty, which was declined)
2. Less than 15k miles, cam lobes worn
3. Less than 10k miles, door seals and headlining, other electrical issues.

All the cars were sold/traded in, but not for another Ferrari.

Cheapest I have heard of for a 456 was $28K, I can think of better cars, MB SL500 comes to mind....

Mark

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by stevepaa

thank you.

I started with a 60 MGA, then 69 BMW 2002, then 69 912 for 20 years, and have had my 92 964 for ten years.
I went looking at 993 TT and may end up with one, but I was just wondering about other possibilities.

any comments on 2002 NSX

The guy I bought my 911 from bought an NSX.
I stopped by about 2 weeks after he bought it and he was sooo proud of it and had to take me for a ride. It was nice, mellow, Predictable, solid. But kinda boring. it was not really very fast.

Then I told him to jump in the passenger seat of the 911 SC. He said "why? I used to own that car".
I told him I'd done a little work to the intake and exhaust.

I found a nice long sweeper and nailed it in 2nd, on three wheels. I hit third, still with the inside front wheel in the air.
It chirped when it came back down

He was grabbing for something to hold onto and was visibly shaken.

He stuttered something and then asked "what the hell I did to it?"

I told him "turbocharger."

Three weeks later he sold that NSX, for a loss.
It looked kinda exotic, but inside it was all Honda.

I'm also reminded on an autocross at Irwindale speedway. i was in the 911 but had the boost turned down to around 6 psi.

I intentionally was easy on the clutch and throttle so as not to damage the drive train, but the better the run you got at the starting beam the better your time was gonna be. One particular launch, I got a little carried away let out the clutch and then stomped the throttle. I musta hit it just right.
(remember, this was a stock 3 liter with stock CIS)
The start lane was tilted slightly to the left, and both rear wheels lit up. I had white smoke boiling off both tires, the rear of the car was trying to slowly slide down the bank to the left, so I had the front wheels almost full lock left.
I didn't want to hit 2nd yet so i was blipping the throttle to keep from over-revving (7500 rpm under boost).
All this was within about 20 or 30 feet

I got flagged and the steward wanted to talk to me about that.

He was half-wondering how the heck I did it, and half-pissed that I did it. He thought the two squiggly black marks were cool, but didn't want me to do it again. He said something about making me go through tech again, and it could take all day. I got the hint.



If you want fun and thrills, go with the Porsche under boost. Nothing like it.

[Rick Lee]

I guess we need some Ferrari porn in this thread. Here's the 348 I drove....next to the Daytona I was afraid to drive and so just settled for a ride along in.



I drove this 512BB too. It was a beast, not a luxury car by any means.



Here I am tearing down a 2.7 with the Daytona behind me.



My buddy's Testarossa and 348 Challenge car.



His '67 330.



Parking lot in front of his "shop".



A '51 212. My humble 993 in the background.

[campbellcj]

512BB. I like.

[Dottore]

All great replies. Particularly McLovin—who hits all the issues.

I've owned Porsches for about 30 years, and for me they represent a combination of practicality and sportiness that is unmatched in any other car. And it's that combination which is so attractive, and breeds the loyalty to the marque.

I did own a very gorgeous Ferrari Dino once, and of all the cars I regret selling, I regret selling this one the most. It had a feminine delicacy and voluptuousness about it that was utterly intoxicating. No Porsche could match it for the passion it evoked.

But ultimately it was toy, rather than a practical car. I didn't drive it hard—at least not very hard. I didn't track it. I would never take a long tour in it. I avoided rain like the plague. I was always glad when it was back in the garage without incident. I didn't dare wrench on it. And I did throw vast amounts of money at it. But sweet jesus was it a lovely machine!

I have always heard that 348's are the absolute dogs of the Ferrari world. Handle like crap. Built like crap. Don't go near them. The 456's are luxo-barges—and pretty far away from the Ferrari DNA. Not sure why you would buy one of these when you could buy a true exotic like a Porsche 928 for far less .

But whenever you go from a Porsche to a Ferrari you lose the element of practicality. And that can lead to buyers remorse very, very quickly—unless, as someone said, money is no object.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I have a foot in both the Ferrari camp and Porsche camp

I live near Maranello and work for Ferrari but spent my hard earned cash on a Porsche 930. Not because I thought Ferrari's were not as good as Porsches but because a 930 was the car I always wanted and suited my needs more than a F355.

Some of the negative comments about Ferrari's on here are very broad sweeping statements and different negative comments could easily be applied to short comings in classic Porsches.

You pay your money and take your choice, for me I 'm glad not everyone wants to drive around in a classic Porsche as when I'm out and about I know there is only a very slim chance I will see anothe classic Porsche

PS I would go for a 550 any day over a 456

[pavulon]

A fair number can afford to buy a Ferrari, very few can afford to own one.

Of couse you can substitute a lot of things for "Ferrari" but it still applies.

Disclaimer: I've never owned a Ferrari.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by pavulon

A fair number can afford to buy a Ferrari, very few can afford to own one.

Of couse you can substitute a lot of things for "Ferrari" but it still applies.

Yes. That would apply to me and my first wife.

[sketchers356]

456 does look like a pretty car, not as showy as some of the Ferraris.

[stevepaa]

well, I test drove the NSX. and liked it but it has some funky controls around the steering wheel

went to nearby Porsche dealer and he had 8 used caymans.
bought the 2008 cayman S with nearly every option available at that time except LSD.

rides like it is on rails

it will be a sufficient change from the 964.

this will give me the impetus to clean up the third stall in the garage.

I also had driven a 92 964T and a 97 993TT and just did not see significant change from the 964 to spend 50K

The cayman S is different.

[Dottore]

Great choice. Congratulations.

[911boost]

Was the 92 964T bone stock? Just curious, as mine is a very different driving experience than a NA 964. I have only driven one 993TT and it was fun, but like you have said, not that much different than my 964T to make me want to change. I am keeping my eyes on the 996TT, as I think one of them would make a great DD.

Enjoy the Cayman S.