Teach me about shotguns
 

My older son and have been members of a local gun club for a couple of years and have gotten to enjoy trap and skeet shooting quite a bit. We've gotten to the point where we both need to buy guns (we've been renting or borrowing until now). We're looking for good, solid all around guns that we can keep for a while and not be embarrassed to pass on to the next generation someday. So I started researching and looking for guns. I have enjoyed the search, but I have come to realize one thing: I don't know enough about shotguns to make an intelligent selection. Every shotgun forum discussion on gun selection seems to devolve into "Porsche vs. Mustang" type arguments. Everyone is sure the gun they selected is the best for their needs.

What I'm looking for isn't so much a recommendation of what guns out there would make a good all around sporting model at a reasonable price; I'm more looking for an education in the differences between types, styles, makes, and models so that I can intelligently select a gun for each of us that fits.

Obviously, generally speaking, there are pumps, autos, single shots, over-unders, and side by sides. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? What makes over-unders the gun of choice for sporting clays? What differentiates an expensive over-under from a cheap one? What qualities differentiate good guns from cheap ones? I'm willing to pay a decent price for our guns; I'm just not sure what I should be looking for in a shotgun. Something tells me that the Pelican Parts Braintrust knows a thing or two about shotguns, er, spoons.

Sorry I couldn't resist. :D It is called a street sweeperhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297044598.jpg

MRM, kudos to you and your son for enjoying trap and skeet shooting.

I wish I could enjoy it, but alas I can't hit the broad side of a barn. :)

Hard to go wrong with Browning if you are willing to pay up. Look at the Citoris, they are trap/skeet monsters.

Browning also makes a damned nice semi auto.

For some reason I had to read that about a dozen times...

Gen, I'm thinking that with Rick's streetsweeper, you and I both might be able to.

Rick, that puppy looks just like what we're looking for. Can you fill me in on its technical specs? Is it a 2.75 or 3 inch chamber? Does it come in 3 1/2 magnum? Gas or inertia driven auto? Is the barrel back bored with choke tubes or is it a fixed choke? Can it handle steel shot? Is it set up for skeet or trap? Is the cycle fast enough for a second shot on sporting clays? How does the kick affect the second shot? Manufactured in Belgium or Japan? These are the things I need to know to make an intelligent selection.

I have about a 20 y/o Browning Citori over and under 12 ga. with replaceable choke tubes for skeet. Its an excellent, solid, shotgun that you won't be embarrassed to own, and it shoots very well. My old neighbor convinced me when he showed me that the Browning has about 1/2 the parts to do the same mechanicals as a Baretta.

Something functional that will also be nice to pass down one day...........A5

Shotguns......
 

If you don't mind using a slightly older gun, take a look at some of the 12 and 20 gauge Winchester Model 12 pump guns that are for sale. I personally prefer to shoot a 20 gauge, but that is a personal preference. You can find Model 12s with vent or solid ribs, fancy wood and/or engraving and gold inlays if that is to your liking. Another one that I particularly like is an Ithica Model 51 semi-automatic. The magazine holds 2 rounds and with one in the chamber, you have 3 fast shots. Even the 20 gauge guns are built on a 12 gauge frame so it has just the right mass for a nice consistant swing. Also, on the Ithica, you will find some of the nicest triggers ever put in a shotgun! If you don't mind paying more, then the Winchester Model 21 makes a great skeet or field gun. Sometimes you can find them with 2 or 3 barrel sets. The only downside is that they tend to be pretty pricey! The main thing is to find a gun that fits you, length of pull, cast off, drop, etc. An inexpensive gun that fits your body will help you to make more hits than a very expensive gun that doesn't fit! Good luck with your search!

My son started at 14 with a Remington 870 Wingmaster (used) and I have a Remington 1187. I would recommend a 20ga, since it can do everything that a 12ga can do but with less recoil and a few less projectiles.

As a guy who owns a single shot, an over/under, a pump, and a semi-auto, all in 12 gauge...

For trap/skeet, can't go wrong with an over/under. The main advantages are that you have a quick follow-up shot, have the same sight picture for both barrels, and the extra mass makes for more even, consistent swinging (and kind of forces a follow-throw). They are generally the most mechanically and most expensive kind of shotgun.

Side-by-sides are mostly relegated to cowboy shoots these days. They were originally designed to allow for a follow-up shot, but the the need for external hammers made an over/under impossible.

Pumps are simple and dependable. They are great for hunting. Most will tolerate some abuse.

Semi-autos have more capacity than over/unders, and can be much lighter. (Which can be both good and bad). Some (most) can be fussy about cleaning and ammunition. They can be pricey as well. If you get a gas-operated one, it will help reduce recoil as well.

The world of shotguns is generally divided into two distinctly different categories. There are "upland" bird guns and "waterfowl" guns. The former tend to be light and lively in the hands, the latter tend to be heavier and slower.

Shotgun competitions have traditionally followed these divisions as well, with "skeet" guns following the upland gun pattern, and "trap" guns following more the waterfowl gun pattern. Sporting clays has now kind of blurred the lines, providing targets suited to both guns, but forcing one to use just one.

Traditional upland guns are doubles, with side by sides being the most traditional. Traditional waterfowl guns are pumps and autos. The over/under seems to be the one most successful at bridging the gap and filling both rolls, both in the field and in competition.

Shotgun manufacturers put a bit more pride and effort into the doubles, especially the side by sides. Where a decent over/under can be had for about a grand, a decent side by side will triple that. Pumps and autos are a dime a dozen in comparison. They are seen more as "working" guns and tend to not have the fit and finish of the doubles. Not many are considered "classic" and most never will be. Yes, they are passed from father to son and down through the generations, but I don't think they ever attain the "heirloom" status of an over/under, much less a fine side by side.

I don't follow the current side by side market, so someone else will have to chine in on those. All I know is there are no low end or medium priced players left in the game that are remotely worthwhile. As far as the over/unders, I think Beretta and Browning fairly well dominate the market. Can't go wrong with either.

On the pump and autoloader end, you'll be looking at the broadest variety of guns and manufacturers. All of the big players are in this game. You can get anything from fine blued steel and walnut to plastic and camo finishes. I would lean towards the more traditional wood/steel finishes, and away from the plastic stocked camo guns as a potential heirloom piece. Also, as an "all around" gun, I would stay away from the big 3 1/2" 12 gauge or the 10 gauge. They are not only useless in a blind, they are even more so outside of one.

I would look for something in the seven to eight pound range, in 12 gauge, with 3" chambers. Choke tubes are on every modern shotgun outside of the very expensive doubles but, keep in mind, changing chokes on a ten or eleven pound waterfowl gun will never make it an upland gun. Nor will changing chokes on a six pound upland gun make it a waterfowl gun. So, look in the middle ground. You will find that's where over/unders seen to live. Their fit and finish is generally superior to the pumps and autos, giving them more of an "heirloom" quality.

Cool, very good answers to a great question...

But those have to be first run belgian guns... Hard to find these days.

I have a 20ga and my dad has a 20ga feather. Very nice guns, and extremely enjoyable to shoot.

Here's another vote for Browning Over/unders. Great shooting guns.

That shot spoon Ricky showed ya is called a Street Sweeper...it is purley a Tactical or self defense weapon if you wana be a Travis...

I say Browning Citori..12 or 20...made in the land of the Rising Sun..cost about 1200.00 for a Grade 1.

The Browning Superposed OU (Beligium) go well beyond your budget.

As do most worth while SXS's[


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This is a SXS Parker Repo DHE 28 GA 2 Barrel set..made in Nippon and is now discontinued.. they run $7000.00 to $7500 and sell very quickly.

An original Parker DHE 28 GA would run about $40,000 + a 2 B set would run well north of that figure if U could ever find one.

what about the 28 gauge, how does it play in all this?

A Browning B 125 Superposed 12G Grade C Featherweight...parts made in Nippon, engraved and assembled in Belgium...last list $5200

If this were a B25 which means completely made in Beligium...about $14,000


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Can't fault a Berretta.....except for the fact they named a Chevy after it.

One thing is to get a gun that fits the individual. Over unders are easier to aim. Side by siders are faster reload.

I have a friend who has a Krieghoff B80 28 GA OU...He never hits LESS than 22 or 23 Clay Birds in a round of Skeet with it. He shoots 2 or 3 rounds with it every Sunday out in Redlands. Years ago he shot Skeet competitivily and was #2 in CA.

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A Ferlach Austrain 12 GA OU circa 1950's.

Ferlachs can cost up to 500K and are completely hand built per customer order. Ferlach has been making spoons since 1500 AD.

"what about the 28 gauge, how does it play in all this?"

There is a 28 ga class in Skeet shooting, and it makes a fine quail gun (if you're a good shot). The guns are usually very light. Shells will cost considerably more than 12 or 20 ga. In 25 years I think I've had two 28's come through my shop (out of 17,000) so I wouldn't call them very common.
Jim

The hot ticket now are Winchester mdl 42's 410's.

I'm sure he is totally confused now, but great advice here. Fit is everything in a shotgun I can't stress that enough. Start easy. a remington 870 or Ithaca 37 pump in 20 ga. An 1100 remington is a good place to start in semi autos. Side by sides are a slippery slope. Keep it simple, get good and enjoy the sport, THEN start moving up. Shopping and trading is half the fun.

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So these old things are worth something?
Jim

As usual Jeff hit all the right marks.

I have a least on of each of the shotguns you mentioned.

I use the A5 or the old pump for geese and duck. So does my son.

I like to shot Dove with the Citori, a Stroger .410 o/u or a CZ s/s 16 guage I bought from Dave.

My son, who grew up shooting a 870 Express 20 gauge, still prefers that gun for everything, deer included. He is very good with it.

All of the above guns are what I affectionately call "truck" guns...I take care of them, keep them in shape, but I don't worry about them, just like my truck:cool:

I honestly do not have a preference.

What range are you guys going to? I go to the one in woodbury sometimes... There is another trap range south of here that has a bar attached to it. I shoot a Winchester 1300 which is a great working gun. Reliable and cheap. 870's are great too.

When confronted with the question you ask, I looked around a bit and then bought a Browning 525 Sporting. It's a really nice gun with removable/external chokes. The one thing I will say about is that its swing is a bit heavy, since the heft of the barrels make the gun feel just a bit front-weighted. Some people choose Berettas for just this reason, as they seem to have a lighter swing. I don't think you can go wrong with either of them.

I think choosing the sporting is the way to go because it's more adaptable - might not be the ideal skeet gun (especially mine, since it has 32-inch barrels), but it works really well for trap and sporting clays.

In any case, you're into a sport that's really great fun. Pretty expensive, too, unfortunately. And with lots to learn, for me, at least, about shotgun shells.

Man, I like my Ruger Red Label 12 ga. It is US made, which I like and the thing is easy to hit with.

Troy

Thanks for the replies. They really help a lot. I think I should have put green text on my request for technical specs on the streetsweeper. I don't think they're approved for trap league use.

It has been hard to get really educated on what makes a good shotgun, no matter how much reading I do. Inevitably, most reviews or web forums end up saying something to the effect of "My expereince with ____ gun was good/bad and so I think you should/should not get one too. While that is helpful, I don't know enough to be able to evaluate why a gun is good, and what makes it higher or lower quality.

It's kind of like someone asking for help learing about 911s. Sometimes people just want you to give them the names of a model or two to look at, and they just buy what you suggest, figuring if it worked for you it will work for them. Other people want to know what makes the 3.0 SC more desirable that the 2.7 mid year cars and how to tell them apart. What makes the SC and Carrera different when they look the same? Is the 964 a transition between two desirable models, or is it good enough to stand on its own? What characteristics will each have? That sort of thing.

I am leaning toward getting an autoloader for Alex and an over/under for me. I think he likes the idea of an auto and appreciates the softer recoil. I'm looking closely at the Browning Maxus. The obvious competition is the Beretta AL391. What should I be looking for when I compare the two?

As for the over/under, there is so much out there that it's been a lot of fun looking at everything. I do like the Browning 525 and 625 sportings. Is there much difference between the two? How do they compare to the Beretta 600 series? I have heard good things about the Red Label too. Is there any reason to favor vintage or newer guns?

ok. Well for me, when I am looking at a shotgun, I want to be able to lay the butt on my bicep and have my fingers just go past the trigger. If it’s in that area then I know the spoon in question will fit me. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

If we're talking about Citoris, and Ruger Red Labels, where does the Winchester 101 fit into this discussion?

There is also the Saiga 12 or 20, which has external clips.
No experience/opinion with the shotgun world though.

One trusts that this 42 is part of the long term portfolio. There are things that can come and go, and a few things that are so clean or so rare that they should just stay.

If U don't know what has happened to the 42's then far be it for me to disregard my Uncle Litvak's advice about never wising up a chump,

Here is what U want...Collector's Firearms

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297119528.jpg

^^^thanks....

Tabs has found a gem. That is a great price for a two barrel set also. I have bought spoons from this place and can vouch for them being a top shelf establishment.

Great idea tabs. In the future I'll consider it as part of the Winchester Portofolio.
Jim