Workplace law question

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 06:21 AM

My employer has decreed that anyone with "director" in their title must now have professional credentials from a certified institution. This wasn't a requirement when I took the job. Do I have a good legal position to refuse this?

Crowbob · 02-13-2011, 06:41 AM

I am confused per normal. Do you now have "director" in your title and fear a demotion? If so, Yes. I doubt any retroactive enforcement would withstand a challenge. If you are pursuing the addition of the word "director" to your title, you probably should begin to acquire said credentials. In that case, they simply added another hoop thru which you need to jump.

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 06:53 AM

Sorry I wasn't clear. I currently hold the title of Assistant Director and have had the position for three years. The talk is if I don't do it I could be made to suffer. At least passed over for promotion (that's clear) but worse they'll find a reason to force me out (I'm 58 years old).

widgeon13 · 02-13-2011, 07:06 AM

What would you have to do to get certified? Would the company support your effort w/ time and cost? Could it be age discrimination in disguise??

Crowbob · 07:18 AM

You would need to show substantial harm almost resulting directly from this rule. Not being promoted does not deprive you of life, liberty or property. Sounds like you are assigning an entitlement to promotion. They can give future perks only to "directors" who have the certs., which could possibly be construed as a demotion. But do you want to get in a fight w/ your boss at age 58? When you are convinced they are forcing you out, begin planning your own exit.

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob

You would need to show substantial harm almost resulting directly from this rule. Not being promoted does not deprive you of life, liberty or property. Sounds like you are assigning an entitlement to promotion. They can give future perks only to "directors" who have the certs., which could possibly be construed as a demotion. But do you want to get in a fight w/ your boss at age 58? When you are convinced they are forcing you out, begin planning your own exit.

Widgeon, Crowbob...I hear what you're saying. No I don't think I'm entitled to promotion , in fact at my age I expect to be sidelined. There's a history of that in this organization. I just don't want to go back to school at this point . I do want to avoid being forced out because I don't have the certification. I think I should be allowed to continue doing my current job without the cert. Thats what I'm trying to determine. I'm happy where I am and don't desire the added pressure and grief that comes with promotion.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

are you an at-will employee?

widgeon13 · 02-13-2011, 12:52 PM

At this stage Of your career you should be grandfathered as long as you are not pushing for a promotion. That would the logical decision by HR unless they are trying to force you out and the I'd say you had the grounds for a discrimination suit. Not an easy one to win either. Anyone else in this similar situation in the company?

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb

are you an at-will employee?

Afraid so. And they have a lot of will.

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by widgeon13

At this stage Of your career you should be grandfathered as long as you are not pushing for a promotion. That would the logical decision by HR unless they are trying to force you out and the I'd say you had the grounds for a discrimination suit. Not an easy one to win either. Anyone else in this similar situation in the company?

Yes, anyone with Director in their title.

A930Rocket · 02:34 PM

I'm unclear as to whether you need an undergraduate degree, graduate degree, PhD or some other type of certification? I know you don't want to go back to school, but how long are we looking here?

If I was in your shoes, I'd be thinking about school, but from my sig, you can see where I'm coming from...

Crowbob · 02-13-2011, 02:43 PM

OK. I have a better picture of your situation, I think. In order to continue in your current job, the company is requiring some increased level of certification. If you don't get the certs., you are not considered to be qualified to be a "director" even though you already are one (by title, at least). Hmm. What comes to mind are the continuing education credits required of MD's to maintain their standing as physicians, even though they already are MD's. I managed a pizza store way back when electricity was first invented. They required periodic food safety certification to maintain status as store manager. If you refused you were gone, except that they told you this up front, not out of the blue when you were already a manger. I still think they could have canned a refusenik.

flatbutt · 02-13-2011, 03:03 PM

I'm figuring if I say no they'll find a way to can me. Just trying to see if the law is on my side.

I have a Baccalaureate in Chemistry, 33 years overall experience, 6 of those as a manager in my current department, the last 4 as assistant director. I'd need to pass a certification exam(preparation for which is on me) and then maintain it with CE credits. I have the job, been doing it for 4 years with good fitreps.

MRM · 02-13-2011, 05:32 PM

Your question is far too complex to be answered definitively here. The way the law works is that there is a general rule, then you look for exceptions. You apply the facts of your situation to the general rule, then test it for exceptions, and see what comes out.

In your case the general rule is that the employer can set the terms and conditions of your employment. They could wake up tomorrow and tell you they didn't need you anymore because they had too many employees or you were too expensive and there isn't anything you could do except apply for unemployment. Employers can upgrade the demands and requirements of a position, even while people occupy the job. It may not be fair, but it is generally legal.

The question is whether there is an exception for your situation that takes you out of the general rule for at-will employees. Age discrimination is one, but without a lot more facts, that exception wouldn't apply. A facially neutral excuse to terminate someone, even if it has a discriminatory effect, is generally acceptable. For instance, the company can RIF all high salary employees on the grounds that they're too expensive. Who are the high salary employees? The ones that have been there the longest. And who are they? The oldest. But because the discrimination is based on cost, not age, the cuts are legal. I know, I've done the research. Even if there's a 100% correlation between age and salary, RIFs based on salary are legal.

I'd talk to HR is I were you, in a very nonconfrontational and information-seeking manner, and see if they're going to implement the policy retroactively to you, or whether you're going to be grandfathered in. If they are going to require you to get certified, I don't see how you can avoid it, based on the information you gave here.

javadog · 02-13-2011, 06:58 PM

Is it just me, or do you work for idiots?

JR

Crowbob · 02-13-2011, 07:11 PM

All bosses are idiots. Its a rule. Criteria #1 to be a boss is to be an idiot first. I was a boss for awhile and saw an idiot in the mirror the whole time. That guy in the mirror said "You are an idiot" every morning. +1 what MRM said because I said it first (winking smiley face).

Hugh R · 02-13-2011, 07:13 PM

What specific certification are you looking at? Registered Professional Engineer, Certified Industrial Hygienist?

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh R

What specific certification are you looking at?

Director of Industrial Smoothing?
YouTube - Seinfeld - The Best of Mr. Kruger

cbush · 02-14-2011, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatbutt

I'd need to pass a certification exam(preparation for which is on me) and then maintain it with CE credits.

What is wrong with requiring your employees to continue to develop and stay proficient in their field?

If your attitude is- "I am 58 and just want to hang on until retirement"--another 8-10 years, I am not sure why they would not want to push you out and get someone with more drive in the position.

I don't in any way mean to imply that this is your attitude, and clearly with your experience, you must be invaluable to your organization. It is just the perception particularly if you are resistant to continuing education/certification.

Just a thought.

oldE · 02-14-2011, 07:32 AM

"I'd talk to HR is I were you, in a very nonconfrontational and information-seeking manner, and see if they're going to implement the policy retroactively to you, or whether you're going to be grandfathered in. If they are going to require you to get certified, I don't see how you can avoid it, based on the information you gave here. "

I would say, not only talk to HR, but let them know you are interested in attaining certification. If you can, why not retire in 7 years as Director, instead of Assistant Director?

Businesses are usually not interested in people who want to 'coast'. It takes away from the 'drive.'

Best of luck.

Les