Ohh U mean one of these..a WG Target mdl 1896 in 455 marked Army Navy CSL...6 inch B is rather unusal for these as most were 7.5's
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I don't hate America at all. If I did I would have left and changed my citizenship.
I fought for America, I supported her with my taxes and still do. Just because one criticises something dosen't indicate any hatered or lack of patriotism.

I have had many in-person interviews and conversations with hundreds of vetrans both American and other nations. No one indicated that they wanted to kick my ass as a youth or as an adult. Besides that is hardly indicative of me being wrong, it merely illustrates the emotional attachment people have with fantasy beliefs.

You might be interested in the work from competent historians since the USSR fell. Records from East Germany, Poland, The Baltic States, Russia, Hungary, etc. were a virtual cornicopia of data to fill in many blanks that were previously filled in by either wishful thinking or ignorance of the actual facts.

Large masses of German records were brought to the US after the war and were only looked at in a most haphazzardly manner. Many of these have been digitized and are painting a far different picture than you learned "so long ago".

Taunts of revisionist history are just that. They have no weight when offered by either individuals with a very limited viewpoint (like the typical individual) or they are emotionally based on a fairytale construct that is only self serving. Peer-reviewed history journals are your best source of information if you do not have access to the actual evidence. Which of these two sources of knowledge do you use?

Human knowledge doubles every 5 years. What was believed as truth is often over turned with new information and evidence. You either stay up or are left behind. I clearly see which choice you have made.

That is because it was a private purchase and not issue.

Really now...a lot of Brit officers bought their own gear...

Right, that is private purchase. They were not reimbursed for their purchases. Standard length barrels were issued. See?

U havn't offered anything that I don't know and you have presented no details that I am not aware of..only your perceptions are different, and if I may say are skewed and or biased.

The Germans would have kicked the Russkies azzes in 41 if they were not tied down in Norway, France, Netherlands, Belgium, the Balkans, Greece and N Africa. As it was they got to within 15 miles of the Moscow, close enough to see the Spires. Not only that but they got a late start on Operation Barbarossa because they went into the Balkans and Greece. Further Hitler in September decided to capture a whole lot more Russians and took his eye off the prize of Moscow..again the delay caused General Winter and those fresh Siberian divisions to be able to throw back the highly vaunted Wehrmacht from the gates of victory in Moscow.

Why would Moscow have won the war for him...Moscow is the rail hub of Russia. All roads lead to Moscow.

Really now...

To clarify..most of the TARGETs were 7.5's and were private purchase. The 6 inch was the standard military issue. What make this unusal is that it is a 6 inch Target and yes it is private purchase.

I have been intrigued by the stories that this one could tell...Boar War, WW1, WW2?????

So? Now you are agreeing with me? Please show what I stated was in error?

By the condition of your piece, not many stories.

I didn't say U were in error on this...I just wanted to clarify what I really meant so as to avoid any further confusion. So we were never really in disagreement.

Your accusations of bias are not based on any facts you have presented. Try some factual evidence instead of emotional ramblings.


Would have, might have, wishes..........................

Please show the reality, not some war game fantasy. The Germans made their choices and decisions, so did the Russians. It is not pertinent to the discussion of what they could do; only what they did.

And let's not overstate the German advance on Moscow as some success. It was a complete failure. Although the Russians lost territory, men and material they were able to recovery very quickly compared to the Germans. The defense of Moscow by successive lines of fortified positions with interlocking fire worked as planned (as it did in Kursk two years later). And the Far East Soviet Reserves were put to good use after the German offensive was stopped. Some historians have pointed out that this was the real turning point in the war as the Germans never were able to threaten Moscow again.

Pointy bullets in revolvers..........
 

The Colt cap and ball revolvers all (.31, .36, .44 calibers) all had factory ammunition available that used a spire point lead bullet. They were often loaded with the powder in a combustible skin that was molded to the back of the projectile. So, starting somewhere around 1849 or so, the round pistol ball was on the way out. And, by the way, the Colt dragoons would hold sufficient bp to produce ballistics that were at least as potent as today's .44 magnum.

The only problem with the Webley revolvers is that they were tied to pretty anemic cartridges. Large heavy bullet? Yes, but at the cost of very low velocities. I've no doubt that the Webley revolvers accounted for a fair number of casualties, but the American .45 acp revolvers made by Colt and S&W for the military for WWI and WWII were much more "efficient" because of the more potent round they fired. And, when used with the half moon or full moon clips, they could be loaded as fast or faster than the Webley. Oh yes, the trigger pulls, most Webley revolvers that I have operated or fired have pretty horrible triggers. Can't say that about the Colts and Smiths.

Any truth to the gag, where in the movies the Webley would fall open barrel pointing to the floor when the trigger was pulled?

The most powerful Colt Dragoon was the original Walker, which held up to 60 grains of black powder. These were known as "horse pistols", as they were too large to carry, so were carried in pommel holsters rather than on the man. These things were absolutely huge.

They were not, however, anywhere near as powerful as a .44 magnum. More like a .38 Special +P, it fired about a 140 grain round ball that struggled to reach 1,200 fps. I've personally fired and chronographed a number of modern replicas. The .44 mag will easily push a 300 grain bullet to over 1,300 fps with today's powders (like about 23 grains of W-W 296), and originally launched the 250 grain Keith bullet (over 22 grains of 2400, his pet load) at about 1,400 fps. This better than triples the power of the old Walker.

The first, second, and third model Dragoons, then the 1860 Army, reduced the charge to about 30 grains of powder. Now we are down to standard .38 Special ballistics. The .45 Colt is when the real power came to revolvers, with civilian loads of 40 grains of black and 255 grains of lead. Standard issue load was reduced to 28 grains, out of deference to the recoil and pounding on the guns themselves. That full 40 grain load, though - boy howdy. I shoot these regularly out of a number of Colts. It's still a very serious load.

Colt loadings.......
 

I believe that the load for the Walker was 60grs of bp with a 220 grain slug. This would move out at about 1100 fps. That is pretty close to a 44 mag load of a 240 gr bullet at about 1300fps! The Dragoons lowered the charge to about 50 grains and often used a 140-150 grain bullet, again at about 1200 fps or so. Personally, I would not want to be hit with either! The Colt army at 30 grains of bp pushing a 147 gr. slug at 1100 fps or so was much milder than the Walker!

The Webley .455 cartridge made for WW I use fired a 265 grain full metal case bullet at 757 feet per second with a muzzle energy of 337 foot pounds..

The .45 ACP cartridge made in 1911 and used in WW I fired a 230 grain full metal jacket bullet at 850 feet per second with a muzzle energy of 369 foot pounds.

Not exactly a large difference and the British never complained about the lack of stopping power.

And the Colt and S&W .45 acp were not as reliable in combat conditions as the Webley. They were too closely fitted and tended to clog up with mud and sand. Trigger pulls are somewhat subjective, but I will say in the heat of combat few will notice. The Colts had a inferior mechanism that did not take abuse well. The S&W was much stronger, less delicate.

As far as I know, none of the cap'n'ball revolvers fired conical bullets. A .457 round ball (I use these in my Ruger Old Army, the only cap'n'ball gun I kept around) weighs 143 grains - I just weighed one. I don't have any .440 round balls on hand (which are closer to what the Dragoons used), but they were obviously lighter. Like I said, I've actually chronographed the Walker with its full 60 grain load, and it did not achieve 1,200 fps with the round ball. Even if later on guys were loading them with conicals, no way on earth would they achieve the velocity of the round ball. The additional bullet length reduces powder capacity, on top of which the heavier bullet couldn't achieve the same velocity of the round ball even with the same charge.

I've never been able to get 50 grains of powder into any of the following models of Dragoons and still seat a ball deep enough to allow the cylinder to turn. More like 40, tops. This 40 grain load just reaches 1,100 fps in those Dragoons (and the modern Ruger). 30 grains pushing the .45 round ball to 1,100 fps in the smaller revolvers? Never in any of the guns I tested. 30 grains won't even buy you an honest 900 fps with the round ball from a .45 caliber cap'n'ball gun.

You contend that it was exclusively the Russian forces that saved the day through their determined defense. My contention is that the Germans ran into bad weather, made some mistakes and the Soviets were able to keep throwing in more men form the east..To that I would add that the Germans had logistic problems as many of their troops were not provided with winter gear. Further and this to be honest was not a point I brought up but the Germans had suffered a lot of casualties and their equipment had been in operation since the Balkan operation. This ha sall been known to me for decades. Yet the Germans were still able to get within a very few miles of Moscow.

Your contention is that the Soviets would have by themselves eventually would have been able to win the war against Germany without the USA help. That they did all the heavy lifting. There is no doubt about doing the heavy lifting, My contention is that the USA's participation in the war is what tipped the balance beam and without it the Germans would have been able to overcome the Soviets eventually. As they would have been to concentrate their full attention and effort on the Soviets.

Lend Lease to the Soviets started in 42.

Upon hearing about Pearl Harbor..Churchill said, "Now we have won the war." It was the industrial might of the USA that turned the tide as much as US participation in fighting the war. The US unlike any other country was able to fight a Global war...In the Central Pacific, Southern pacific (MacArthur out of OZ land) India Burma, China, N Africa/Italian front, N Al antic and eventually France. Plus supplying the Soviets with trucks, aeroplanes and other assorted war material.

The industrial capacity of the USA alone was greater than Germany, Italy and Japan combined. Japan never had a chance, from the beginning it was a Kamikaze operation. This was known in 1940-41 as there was a book published called the "Hand Book Of War." which spelled it out.

In 1940 the USA represented 40% of the industrial capacity of the world.


I have read Guderian, Manstein, Galland, Speer, Shierer, Toland, Salsibury, Caidain, Becker, Carell, Craig, Ryan, Morrison among others and that is just the ETO and WW2. Most of it before I was out of HS.

That does not include WW1, and the American CW...

Today i am wading through Lees Lieutenants....slowly

No conical bullets.........
 

Strange, I have an original Colt combustible cartridge in my cartridge collection that has a conical bullet. I doubt that it is the only one ever made. I also have some CW battlefield pickups that are spent conical lead bullets in pistol caliber. Also, if you will look at some of the original bullet molds for the 1849 - 1860 Colts, you will see that they are made to cast either a round ball or a conical.

I always thought they came along later in the development of these guns, so I stand corrected. I'm surprised to learn they were actually deployed during the Civil War. Thanks for the education, Fred. I've heard of them, but have never seen one. If you get a chance, could you snap a few pictures?

I would love to get my hands on one of those dual cavity ball/conical molds. I would love it if Lyman or someone made a modern example.

Why dontcha check Dixie catalog....it is the same mold that comes in the cased set of Colt pistols..small brass thingy..