Flat Nose FMJ 9mm

[masraum]

After Jeff's last thread about FMJ and JHP, I ordered a few different types of "heavy" 9mm flat nosed bullets. This isn't all that was out there. There are a few more options. I chose the mostly the big names.

I bought some 124gr Fiocchi, 147gr Remington UMC, 147gr Speer Lawman and 147gr Winchester Super-X.

I know that Winchester has a white box 147gr that may be flat nosed, and there may be another option or two from folks like Blazer and CCI.

Fiocchi also makes a 123gr flat nose.

I haven't fired them yet, but here they are.



124gr Fiocchi, 147gr Winchester Super-X, 147gr Remington UMC, 147gr Speer Lawman

I was expecting them to mostly be the same bullet just from different manuf, but they were quite different.

The Fiocchi is nearly pointed. The Speer and the Remmington are similar except that the UMC has exposed lead at the tip. The Speer and the Winchester are similar but the Winchester has a slightly larger flat surface. The Speer were the least expensive, but they were all pretty comparably priced.

I'm curious to see how they shoot and how dirty they are. In the past nearly all of my rounds have been WWB. It usually leaves a black residue, but not too much. Recently I went through 100 rounds of Independence. It left a copper colored residue on the gun. It seemed like more, but it may just be that the copper stood out more against the black of the gun.

I found one 158gr 9mm round, but it was a round nose. I'm surprised that 158gr is so common for 38spl, but not for 9mm.

[Jeff Higgins]

Now we're talking, Steve. Let us know how these shoot.

Is your rear sight adjustable for elevation? These are likely to shoot high compared to lighter bullets.

The 9mm just doesn't have the case capacity for 158 grain bullets. The OAL is restricted by magazine length, so there is no way to seat them out like we can in some revolvers. That, and .38 Specials use .357-.359 diameter bullets, where the 9mm uses .355-.356 diameter, so the ammo companies cannot simply use their 158's intended for the .38.

[masraum]

Nope, nonadjustable sights. I'm hoping to get to the rang this weekend. I'll report back when I do.

[UconnTim97]

I look forward to hearing your results. I went through a box of the Remington flat nose .380 last week
They fired clean and made nice sharp holes in the target paper. I will buy more next time I see them on sale in 9mm and / or .380. For range ammo I buy the best quality brand that is on sale, be it ball ammo or flat nose, even though I liked the flat nose better.

[masraum]

I've gone through a bunch of jhp at the range (a fraction compared to the fmj) since my gun is a carry gun. I love the nice clean holes compared to the round nose. I'm hoping that the flat nose is nearly as good.

[legion]

I shoot regular 115 gr. FMJ for general plinking and practice, but shoot 147 gr. FMJ's for competition (pistol league at work). There is a huge difference at 25 yards between 115 and 147 grains. I'm all over the place with 115 gr. but the 147 gr. is much flatter at distance.

[Jandrews]

Where did you order from, Steve?

JA

[masraum]

Where did you order from, Steve?



JA

Ammunition To Go : Your one stop for all of your ammunition needs!

I find they seem to have the best prices most often.

[azasadny]

Make sure those flat nose bullets feed properly in your firearm of choice. The pocket pistols I've been working with lately are very sensitive to the shape of the bullet and the feed ramp and I've had consistent issues with non-round nose bullets. My large frame 9mm's (Sig P239, Beretta 92FS, S&W 645, 59 and 3913) will feed anything, flat or round nosed, but the small guns (Walther PP, Remington 51, etc...) are more finicky. The Colt 1903 has fed everything I've put in it so far...

[MotoSook]

So what's the advantage? Better trajectory?

[masraum]

I've loaded up mags of each and can manually cycle them through. I know manually cycling them through is not the same as having them cycle while firing. My gun has a polished feed ramp and should feed just about anything.

If you look around, youll find that its not unusual for folks that carry a 380 to use fmj flat nose ammo as SD ammo. Well Jeff Higgins postulated here that it should work for any gun. Ive decided to give it a shot for my gun. Ive also always wanted to shoot some 147gr in my gun.

The Myth of "Over Penetration"

[UconnTim97]

So, any impressions yet on the different ammo types?

[m21sniper]

The most powerful flat nosed ammo in 9mm comes from:

Buffalo Bore trail defense, 124gr+P+ FMJ flat nose, nearly 1300fps (about 490fpe energy)

Doubletap Trail defense, 147gr+P FMJ flat nose, 1135fps (420fpe energy) Over 40" penetration in gel

Anything from the big name companies won't even come close to those velocity and energy figures.

Originally Posted by Soukus

So what's the advantage? Better trajectory?

Penetration and the ability to punch through heavy bone while still giving a good wound profile. (the flat meplat creates a shock wave and also crushes much more tissue than a typical round nose FMJ does) The bigger the meplat, the greater the destruction the round will cause.

I carry Buffalo Bore 100gr+P hardcast lead flat nose ammo in my Ruger LCP. This ammo is MUCH more powerful than any other .380 load on the market, matching the energy levels of .38spl+P, and getting over 20" penetration in gel.

I also have a supply of both the Doubletap 147gr+P and Buffalo Bore 124gr+P flat nose FMJ rounds for my HK P7 for when i'm up my uncle's place up the mountains, where black bears are a fairly common sight.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Now we're talking, Steve. Let us know how these shoot.

Is your rear sight adjustable for elevation? These are likely to shoot high compared to lighter bullets.

The 9mm just doesn't have the case capacity for 158 grain bullets. The OAL is restricted by magazine length, so there is no way to seat them out like we can in some revolvers. That, and .38 Specials use .357-.359 diameter bullets, where the 9mm uses .355-.356 diameter, so the ammo companies cannot simply use their 158's intended for the .38.

There are 158gr 9mm factory rounds on the market, but they have VERY low energy levels and a round nose FMJ profile. I would not use them for anything.

Originally Posted by legion

I shoot regular 115 gr. FMJ for general plinking and practice, but shoot 147 gr. FMJ's for competition (pistol league at work). There is a huge difference at 25 yards between 115 and 147 grains. I'm all over the place with 115 gr. but the 147 gr. is much flatter at distance.

This is exactly the opposite of reality.

115gr bullets have a much flatter trajectory than 147gr bullets do, for any given pressure level.

147's are a bit more resistant to wind drift though.


My P7 and some Doubletap 147gr+P flat nose FMJ trail defense rounds

[Mo_Gearhead]

QUOTE: "Make sure those flat nose bullets feed properly in your firearm of choice."
________________

If you had a powerful enough magnifying glass and placed it over the feed-ramp on most factory-shipped, semi-automatic handguns you would see - machine tooling marks - running horizontally. Not good. It looks smooth but microscopically it isn't.

Every feed-ramp deserves/needs a good polishing. If your spoon came from a custom shop - this is already done.

Take an empty case of the appropriate caliber (.380 - 9 mm - 45 - etc.) and wrap a piece of 1000 grit emory paper around it. (I also apply some metal polishing paste.) Then - you spend some time sliding the "tool" up and down the length of the feed ramp. You may also see a sharp edge where the ramp mets the barrel, so push up the entire length as you work/polish. Later - change to 1500 grit to finish up.

It helps - and anyone can do it.

PS - disassembly of the spoon was assumed.

[masraum]

Crap, I'd forgotten. Yeah, I had one of the Remington UMC rounds not go boom despite a great big dimple in the primer. I even tried running it through a second time just to double check. Those were also the bullets with the exposed lead core.

They definitely cut a hole in the targets like a jhp or wc/swc, even the targets on printer paper.

Except for the bad round of Rem UMC they all seemed to run about the same. I've run at least 50 rds of each through the gun. The Speer Lawman felt the best. The Winchester didn't feel like the recoil was consistent, but I can't say for sure. I'm not that finely tuned yet. I also seemed to be less accurate with it, but again, I'm not sure that my shooting is consistent enough to be a good judge.

My gun is an XDM which is the upgraded version of the XD. It comes with a polished feed ramp (mirror finish and softly rounded), among other things, and didn't have a problem feeding any of the rounds.

I've got a few hundred more rounds of the Speer and 50 more of each of the others.

[m21sniper]

That makes sense. Speer Lawman is high quality ammo designed to mimic the JHP duty loads of the same weight.

WWB is low quality high volume target ammo.

[masraum]

Snipe, I'm not sure that the "energy" is necessarily a good indication of a rounds ability. The formula for the energy is 1/2 mass of the bullet times the velocity squared. Because the velocity is squared, but the mass isn't, the velocity is the most significant factor. It seems that as bullets get lighter, their velocity goes up (assuming same cartridge and similar charges). Since that's the case, the lightest fastest bullet that you can get will have the highest energy. I'm pretty sure that most of use would agree that lighter bullets may not penetrate enough, and at some point the bullet is too light. If the bullet doesn't penetrate, it's energy is probably not working for you.

[m21sniper]

In the weights I listed, 124gr and 147gr, the companies I listed offer by far the highest energy levels.

The Doubletap 147gr+P FMJ FN load will penetrate over 40" of gelatin while still packing 420fpe of energy. By far the most of any 9mm load I am aware of, with the possible exception of the Buffalo Bore 124gr+P+ FMJ FN round. I've never seen penetration figures for that one, but it's probably comparable to the Double Tap load. For comparison, 124gr NATO pressure Win Q FMJ penetrates about 30" of gelatin.

For a given weight, the more energy, the deeper the penetration you'll get.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

That makes sense. Speer Lawman is high quality ammo designed to mimic the JHP duty loads of the same weight.

WWB is low quality high volume target ammo.

Yeah, it wasn't actually WWB. It was Winchester Super-X, but I think ats just a bulk ammo like the wwb that's designed to be less toxic (fully enclosed lead or no lead or something like that and a non-toxic powder, IIRC).

[m21sniper]

Green ammo...what will they think of next...