What Is This Spoon And It's Value
 

Sometimes when one is looking through lists of spoon auction items one is not given very much information nor very clear pictures of what it is. That is where knowledge and having research material available is important. It is at this time that items tend to fall through the cracks at auctions. Most people don't take the time to figure it out.

On the following item it was listed as an:" LC Smith 12 GA Shotgun with 1886 and 1895 patent dates engraved."..thats it.

So the question is exactly what model of LC Smith spoon is this and what is its relative value. If one cares to take the time it can be figured out. So BOyz have at it and tell me what it is and what it is worth?


BTW: This is really one for the TARGA man...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702292.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702326.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702361.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702401.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702426.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702477.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702515.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702564.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306702598.jpg

L C Smith
 

Grade 3 w/fluid steel barrels. Made between 1895 and 1912. Looks clean but much used. Probably in the $3500 - $5000 range.

Ps
 

The oval egraving on the side of the receiver indicates grade 3. Would like to see a better picture of the leather wrap on the barrels. That could hurt the price some.

My My U are GOOD...and close but not quite..Nitro Barrels, Single Trigger , original bluing and healthy case hardening remains, Barrel release lever is to the right which indicates that the gun is still tight (LC's don't usually shoot loose), with the leather Butt Pad it would be apparent that the stock wasn't modified to fit a Pad.

Bores are shiny and bright wt no dings, no cracks in stock especially behind the locks as it is where LC's love to crack, by SN it was made in 06 and it does have Auto Ejectors(from a call) Auctioneer was not knowlegable about spoons so he was not of much help other than giving a description of condition.

To be nutz on you need to check the engraving pattern on the top of the frame, the bottom of the Receiver and Trigger guard..that is where this story will be told.

It took me a little less than 1/2 an hour to figure it out. I went to the Brophy and Hochines books on LC's. Then when you figure the model you can figure the value...

On this Spoon 3 shotgun buying dealers were competing...I figure 2 really didn't bother to do their homework. One of the 2 beat me out on a Win Mdl 12 Black Diamond C 1944 at $1225.00 out de door...that gun had professionalyrefreshed wood (English style Straight Grip wt factory solid rib)) and some reasonable wear (still tight) on the bluing...would have been a nice Trap Gun for the range..with just enough patina and wear to make it real nice. Could have lied and told evryone it was Dad's gun...

Anyway I digress...this LC does have some blue wear and thinning on the barrels. I figure that for being 105 years old that isn't so bad..and it is still ORIGINAL BLUING with no monkey business. The question is HOW MUCH BLUE wear is ther under the leather wrap? From talking to the aucitoneer it basically is from the family of the original owner so this is a fresh one to the market.

BTW..I don't think it was used all that much..

Nice shotgun.........
 

Tabs,

Looks like you have found a very nice piece. If I remember correctly, there were only two choices for barrels on grade 3s. One was damascus and the other fluid steel (also known as nitro). I think that the single trigger was an option as were the ejectors. If it was a 20 ga. I would fight you for it! Good luck on your bidding.

Not Grade 3....

Figure Nitro Barrels, SST. AE, original blue wt nice case, nice wood without being cut for a Pad and being a 06 Elsie...Figure the grade and No. made in that Grade and what do you have...

Figure at least 1/2 are Damacus Barrels, add in the few with SST's and this one not being Monkeyed with..

BTW SST & AE were options..most in this grade did have AE's so one has to add $$$$$ because of those options, especially the SST

One little clue......
 

How are the barrels choked?

I don't know, the Auctioneer is not a Spoon person..on this one it doesn't matter in determining the Grade..it is all in the engraving pattern..

and if this were a 20 GA... let us just put it this way there were less built in 20 GA in this Grade than the Gauge #. So my guess would be that if this were a 20 there wouldn't be a Elsie guy alive who would not be after this one.

LC Smith grades
 

If I remember correctly, there were grades 00, 0 , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, Pidgeon, A1 and A2 between 1895 and 1912. From the fact that it is engraved, it is not an OO, O or 1. The Grade 2 engraving was a circle on the sideplate, the Pidgeon grade was a pattern without a circle or oval and starting with grade 4 the oval was larger, taking up almost all of the sideplate. I am not in any sense an expert on LC Smith shotguns, but you will have to tell me why you think it is other than a grade 3 gun.

Looks like a crown grade. Pretty rare even in a big bore. I'll ball park it at around 10K.

Spoon, really you are calling this shotgun a spoon. enough is enough with this one.

Shotgun grade.
 

Can't be a Crown grade. They were made in and after 1945. Tabs says this one was manufactured in 1906. I'm hanging with Grade 3.

Grade 4......I have matched the engraving pattern, in two books. Total of 455 were bilt in this Mdl, with 388 being 12 GA spoons. Only 15 were 20 GA. This is rarer than the Grade 5 and A1's..the Monogram is rarer in this earlier period mdl.

Currently there are only 2 ads for a Grade 4, both with Nitro barrels, 12GA and with dbl triggers

1. Guns America..$10,500 or reasonable BO..private party, has been in family since new..maybe a little lessor condition.

2. Guns International..$20,000..High end shotgun dealer by the name of Kevin James in GA. nicer spoon than this one.

Julias several years back had a 10 GA with Damacus Barrels RESTORED that went for $6500. Saw another RESTORED 12GA Damascus B one go for $3420. can't remember the auction..

The preferred nomenclature is "shotspoon" but Herr Tabdulah is the final arbiter of wealth and taste so he may call it what he pleases.

David, how can you tell it's a crown grade? That is one fine firearm, um, spoon.

Elsie didn't do a Grade 6 or 7...

00,0,1,2,3,Pigeon,4,A1,5,Monogram,A2,A3...

After 1912 the line up changed to: Field, Ideal, Trap, Speciality, Eagle, Crown and Monogram.

Fixed it for ya.

Now that we have the complete info what is this ones appraised value from the concensus board..

Tabs, you have a PM.

JA

LC Smith Grade 3 and Grade 4
 

Here are a couple of better pictures of the Grade 3 and Grade 4 sideplates. The Grade 3 looks to me to be closer to the ones in Tabs pictures.


Grade 3
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306782929.jpg

Grade 4
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306782973.jpg

First step..get the current copies of..(cost about $80). Gives an order of value on the different models.

1. The Blue Book of Gun Values

2. The Standard Catalog of Firearms

I will spend literally hundreds of USD for a book or a set of books. It is invaluable research material, that can make or save you thousands of USD. Books even become collectable when they go out of print and will climb dramatically in value for their research value.

A good book that will fall into this catagory is the book on LC Smiths by Hochines. He has passed away and his son is not going to reprint.

Next ALWAYS BUY QUALITY BRANDS..Colt, S&W, Winchester, Browning etc...they have the best name recognition, resale and apprecaition potential. Stay away from Commeratives, customized guns or refinished guns (there are several exceptions on restored or refinsihed..one is Brit rifles and shotguns). Obviously everything is a function of price and if it is being given away well...

For example in the same auction that this LC Smith came from there was a Sprinfield 1903 made at the Rock island Arsenal in 1909 by SN, B date and Cartouch on the stock...the spoon was straight with no monkey biz nor arsenal rebuilding, it came from the same estate as the Elsie did. The Bayonet was offered in the same auction...it sold for $970 and the Bayonet for $190 to the same person. Like early 1903's in roughly the same condition have sold for $3120 in the past several years at Julias Auctions..early ones that are straight are far and few between..A GOOD DEAL for $970????

If I were not saving my powder for the Elsie I woulda stepped on that 1903 faster than Dipso can talk shyte...

Also in the past month a British Jacobs DBL Rifle circa 1860 was sold for $2600 at auction, I have seen two ads for them..one at $7500 and the other at $6750..good deal at 26? In the same auction a Wm Lawerence high grade percussion rifle in near new condition sold for $2600 also...I sold a Wm Lawerence Percussion rifle with Malcomb scope in near new condition for $9000...Good Deal at $26? Again I only had so much dinero, so I wound up with a RJ Howland Percussion TGT rifle for $1900. Those are mid 3's...2500 to 4000. I was trying to get the WM Lawerence Percussion rifle as well but decided not to chase, dropping out at 24...

Crown Grades.........
 

Actually, the earliest known Crown grade is dated 1914. They were made/sold until 1950. There was an accident at the factory in 1945 when a floor collapsed. The decision was made to produce guns out of previously made parts as long as possible. So, all of the "pieces" were made before the event in 1945, but continued to be sold as completed guns until the parts were exhausted in 1950. So, manufacture dates run from about 1913-14 thru 1945.

The Grade 4 U are showing is an early one where the oval was further back. Further I couldn't make heads nor tails of the engraving in the pictures furnished by the auctioneer of the side palte ovals. I based my findings on the clear pictures of the engraving on the top of the frame..especiallyon the frame around the barrle lug, the B lug, and on the lever. Also the bottom of the Frame picture, the engraving around the screw and blued lug. The engraving of the little birds in the trigger guard oval. All are distinctly different from Grade 3 to 4. This is grade 4.

I have Brophy's book too...the floor collapsed right around 1950..Marlin decided not to salvaged the operation..and discontinued the LC Smith line..

An Elsie Field 20 GA..wt ssp rib and a Fox Sterlighworth 20GA

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306786562.jpg

working on a field grade elsie in 16 FW as we type.

Thanks Tabs...I will start there.

JA

I have a Elsie Speciality wt English style stock in a 16...only 655 Speciality 16's were bilt and wt the str stock???

This has an old fajen replacement stock that is way out of proportion to the rest of the gun. It's huge. I'll be using it for firewood. I'm hanging an english stock on it in AA fancy walnut. the rest of the gun is nice the wood just sucks. I'm waiting for the timer to go off now on the barrels that are being boiled and carded once again today. I'm at 8 rust/boil/card cycles right now.

Received the Elsie today...IT IS A GRADE 4E..as marked on the Frame. Has a couple of problems that can be fixed. A broken left barrel Firing Pin, and a piece of the lower barrels filler is loose. the hard pad is chrystalized and needs replacing, and the Barrels might have been refinshed allthugh they look to be original. The barrel bluing is shows some wear and is getting thin in places.

It weighs over 8 lbs, has the Hunter One Selective Trigger, Ivory Bead Front Sight, Gold band on Baarrels as well a the "S" on the Safety Bores are clean, with no dings, 30 inch Barrels. has a fair amount of Case left on the frame, very tight and solid shotspoon for 1906 mfg.

As stated on 455 Quality No 4's were made with 388 in 12 GA..from 1896 to 1912.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/L-C-Smith-4-E-12-GA.cfm?gun_id=100186160

Considering what I have in it and what the 4E's are worth there is plenty of margin to get er in tip top shape and still make bank (even at less than 1/2 the price of the one listed above)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865033.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865051.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865071.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865088.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865106.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865125.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308865141.jpg

Nice score Tabs. i have a pin for you. I'll send you a set, have yer guy do em both while he's in there. Have him fix the buggered screw too. Looks like and honest gun/.

It's been apart before. The screws are out of time. The slots should all point down the axis of the gun.