voted in a union today..
 

After a 6-7 month drive, the union was voted in at my company today.. (aviation)

I had mixed feelings about it, especially after hearing all the rants from both sides, but now thats its over, Im very glad it passed.

Basically, we are seeking job protection rights and better QOL, and no one is 'after every penny we can get'. We wouldnt even mind if no benefits change. But we want something in writing.

So just wondering, how much are your annual union dues going to cost you?

If your employee/employer relationship wasn't combative before it sure will be now...so you've got that going for ya.

I am also in a union and it's a joke. Now there is no cooperation, everything is a battle over details and wording. On the backside those in leadership roles in the union use that power to rape those that are not. It's just a bad deal all around.

I hope it works out for you though.

**it only costs me about $100 a month for the privilege though, well, if you don't count the additional $200 a month they scammed out of of the membership for additional retiree benefits paid for entirely by active employees**

Having been in a union for 20 years and now an employer with 3 unions signed on. I fuly support unions. We believe that in construction we get a better trained and safer worker.

The problem for us in construction is that the union is pricing union shops out of the market. Non union shops are able to hire good workers because of the economic conditions. So a non union shop maybe has an hourly cost of $50-75 dolars. Our costs for a union A plumber is $110 per hour. The locals are now learning these lessons due to the fact that 50 - 75% of members are sitting on the bench.

Unions have got to be aware of these conditions and turn out a better more productive worker in order for the employer to be competitive, otherwise they'll be no union shops to work in.

In Indiana, you have to be in a union to get the better/bigger construction jobs. That's just the way they do it here. Now, since 80% of the trade workers DO NOT belong to unions, guess who gets the jobs, time after time. I don't have a dog in this fight, but the way things are, many fine workers are being kept out all the time, and it costs so much more for the project, mainly on projects paid for by the taxpayer.

Unions are the worst. You have been warned. I hope you have savings to cover a solid 6 months of mortgage/expenses...

No one in America from McDonald's on up would be making what they are if it were not from what Unions had done in the past.

Yea.....that's kinda the problem.

Once long ago, I paid $35/mo into the Teamsters and endured a lengthy stirike with no pay...until the AFLCIO finally stepped in and provided a 1/10th - 1/50th of my lost wages.
Now I could pay rent again and stop eating ramen.


Then I began with the IAM (which the pilots union dropped like a hot iron) and paid $65/mo.
Never saw or heard of a rep for the first year or two.

That local union finally decided I was undesirable as an employee after I stood up and demanded technical proof when my foreman(along with the v.p. of the area) got in my face and demanded I put together a trailer gear without proper lugnuts/studs holding those big wheels together.
Another mechanic called the mfr. and the problem was solved.

That didn't go over well with "the powers that be"...along with my noted objections to a senior mechanic stalking me at my home at night.

After a combination of overwork injuries finally put me under for the next decade or so(still feelin' it), my regular pay gone, the IAM kept charging me the same regular dues. Not the lowered injury dues.
I would call the local office and they would "fix it".
Then, the next month I'd get a bill for hundreds in unpaid past dues.
This continued.

No assistance, no care, and no concern to getting me as a motivated employee back to work.
This was "liberal" California.

Hey! People who don't like to work would be out of jobs if it weren't for unions! You hacks watch your tone!

LOL squared.

i'm generally not a fan of unions, but i am a current member, and i know exactly the importance of a union for pilots. for you guys who don't fly, you wouldn't understand. a good cba makes all the difference between a somewhat good quality of life, versus being ramrodded everyday on a trip. pilot union members aren't just fat slobs sitting around, refusing to work, and getting a paycheck and an awesome pension, like so commonly the "union member" image portrays.

for those of you who fly and actually care about air safety, thank pilot unions for ensuring that companies truly operate in the interest of safety. whether it's SOP's, rest requirements, etc., all of those are things that need to be addressed by a union. i know first hand (from being the department head of flight training of one of the largest regional and now a major carrier) that mgmt will do everything it can to save money....even in the interest of safety. most airlines try to be reactive to safety, instead of proactive. good luck rattlsnak

Its necessary for aviation..

Too many extremely costly choices have to be made by pilots who have Zero ability to move laterally in the field.

Safety and legality should be on the pilots mind.
Not if a company accountant will like it

(True story of one pilot in a small cargo company)
Scenario: Your in a hotel after 14 hours on the job. You have a generous 12 hours of rest from landing to takeoff the next day. After meals with your crew you head to your hotel bed.....

One problem: Its during the world cup and hotels country is playing(or it could have been domestic disturbance,fire alarm, food poisoning, loud weather,insomnia, its loud as hell). You get intermittent sleep.

The next day after 2 of your 3 flights scheduled(11 hours of flight time 18 hours on duty... starting at 7pm) you start to feel really tired. Your head is cloudy, your reactions are slowed, your trying to down coffee to stay awake because your nodding off in your chair at the gate in between flights.

You decide that continuing to fly would be UNSAFE. The airline has to cancel the flight... costing lots of money(several $1000's maybe even more then your yearly salary) and destroying tomorrows schedule.

10 min after you cancel your phone lights up with your bosses number, "its in our companies best interest for you to complete the flight" then your bosses > boss call's "Remember when I interviewed you and gave you a shot? Im not asking you to violate any rules but... This will cost us significantly......."

You mention that this sounds like an investigatory interview and mumble "Weingarten Rights". You find some rest and operate the flight 8 hours late.

When you get back to your home-base you find a pink slip, 2 weeks later you get a check for paid time off and your back on the job. You give a quick call to your representative to thank him. Two months later you turn in documentation showing how the company is systematically cutting your hours and giving the work to other pilots. You get another check, you make another call. All this because you were trying to be safe.....

I know it doesn't always work out but they are a necessary evil in aviation...

Another quick one from our non-union subsidiary:

You leave your job for a new one.. You get training on the company airplane and expect to make $5000 a month.

Training takes 2 months and costs the new company $10,000(typical). You have been making 250 a week training pay for the 2 months.

Right before you take your final checkride the company says "were going to pay you 3000 for the first 5 months till you pay us back for the training costs."

Do you hit the street with a -2 month handicap after your bills pilled up?

I get a kick out of people who believe they are entitled to a job.............

This bull**** is what has ruined the United States and put talent-less klowns in high public office by dint of the entitlement mentality, parasite class vote.

Exactly. But nonetheless I hope it works out for you and the industry.

The scenario you describe has played out a few times in my wife's 12+ years at Skywest. Other than a groan from the dispatcher, no one has ever questioned her judgment.

BTW... Skywest is hiring a lot of pilots right now. Here's their feelings toward unions:


Our Union Free Statement

SkyWest Airlines has been union-free for over 30 years. It is our desire to remain so. Today, SkyWest is standing amidst the ruins of a once proud industry. Our success is our people. We have accepted the responsibility of open and honest communication. We have maintained an open-door policy that enables any employee access to anyone in management, from your supervisor to our CEO. We want you to be informed. And as SkyWest continues to grow, the continued empowerment of employees through education is what will not only preserve, but improve Our Culture.

We feel strongly that the long-term interests of all SkyWest employees can be best served by maintaining our current environment of open and honest communication without adding an unnecessary layer of outside third party bureaucracy. We should not compromise the environment we have worked so hard to create. The existence of a third party will undoubtedly change the relationship that we currently have of dealing directly with one another.

And while union organizers may want you to believe they have your best interest at heart, the truth is that unions are businesses that generate money by signing up new members and collecting dues. They do not provide wages, benefits, buildings and equipment, or any other asset necessary to keep our company in business. A union can only provide its members with what a company is willing to give. The truth is that a union only has two things it can guarantee its members: its right to strike and make its members pay dues and assessments.

History has taught us that powerful unions, particularly in our industry, do not hesitate to place their companies in financial peril -- ultimately costing thousands of hardworking men and women their jobs. Understand, this is not "just a pilot" issue. Union activity affects every single employee.

Our dedication to fairness in all that we do, coupled with an uncompromising commitment to quality, truly sets SkyWest apart as an airline and an employer. We believe in treating each employee with respect. We have continued to update our policies and procedures to ensure that you will be treated fairly and consistently. By working together, we have created an environment of competitive wages, good working conditions, and opportunity for both personal and professional growth. Together we have built SkyWest; and together we can continue to build a better SkyWest for our fellow employees and ourselves.

I've been forced to pay union dues for over 20 years & feel ripped off. Unrepresented employees get better deals & aren't out tens of thousands of dollars in dues. The two times I've asked them for help, they basically told me to STFU unless I want to become a target. I would opt out in a heartbeat. Union negotiations are a joke, they have sold us down the river to further their own political cause. I view my union officials as parasites.

When I hear unionization, I think of central planning and this quote from Atlas Shrugged: "In the name of a return to morality, you have sacrificed all those evils, which you held as the cause of your plight. You have sacrificed justice to mercy. You have sacrificed independence to unity. You have sacrificed reason to faith. You have sacrificed wealth to need. You have sacrificed self-esteem to self-denial. You have sacrificed happiness to duty."
Ayn Rand

A friend of mine works in a Union auto repair shop. It's really necessary.

Why? Every time they have a tough sales month they want to start firing the experienced guys that make more money. Then they hire these young techs that can't do anything but change oil and brake pads.... The union protects these guys based on seniority. The lazy guys are the young ones because they don't want to do the hard work....

Not saying they are ALL good, but some of you guys are painting with a pretty broad brush.

A friend of mine works in a Union auto repair shop. It's really necessary.

Why? Every time they have a tough sales month they want to start firing the experienced guys that make more money. Then they hire these young techs that can't do anything but change oil and brake pads.... The union protects these guys based on seniority. The lazy guys are the young ones because they don't want to do the hard work....

Not saying they are ALL good, but some of you guys are painting with a pretty broad brush.
__________________
Chris Streit


Spot on Chris. Same situation in my industry.

I'm not a big union fan, but not all of them are evil and unnecessary

Unions totally suck ass.

IMHO, of course.

Hope you're a loyal liberal Democrat, because you'll be donating to their campaigns...

Paul, thats the thing that has me as the bad guy with my union, I refuse to support the candidates they back. They got all pissy when they handed me an obama shirt back then and i tossed it right in the garbage in front of them.

I see...so you see nothing wrong with a "race to the bottom"?

You've obviously never been to places like China, where people earn a dollar per day. But hey- They're competitive!

N!

I'm an ALPA member. I first became a member in 1993, and have been a member again since 2005.

ALPA is a flawed union. This thing is run like a business, and while it kind of has to be, In my humble opinion, they take it too far. For example, whenever there are contract negotiations, you can bet that the senior guys are going to get all the goodies, and the more junior [read: paying less dues...] are going to get the shaft. ALPA did an about face in 2007 and went along with the age 65 rule; Who did this benefit? Young low-paying member or OLD high paying members? You do the math-

BE THAT AS IT MAY BE....let me tell you another story. I've worked at six airlines in my career, been furloughed twice for a total of 14 months unemployed. At airline number three, a small cargo airline out of Dallas that was NON UNION, I was tasked one evening with flying a cargo Boeing 727 from Brussels to Bergamo, Italy. I was captain on the beautiful clear moonlit night, and as I flew over the Alpine mountains of Switzerland, I remember thinking what a great job I had.

"Hey Norm....we're losing oil out of number 3 engine" my engineer says and taps me on the shoulder.

We had 3 gallons one hour before at takeoff, and now we were down to 1.5 gallons. Minimum for dispatch was 2.0 gallons, but since our oil temps were way cool, I elected to leave the engine running. "Let me know if it gets down to 1.0 gallon" I said. Sure enough, 15 minutes later, he taps me and says that we are at 1 gallon. I was descending over the last of the Alps into Italy, and could see the airport 50 miles away, so I brought that engine to idle and left it there in order to preserve some oil in case we had to go-around. The approach and landing were uneventful, flown on two with one engine idling.

As I turned into my parking spot, the ground controller comes on and says "Eurotrans, be advise, you had large cloud blue smoke from rear of plane after landing". Great. Now you finally tell me I'm on fire! We parked, shut down, and when the stairs were up I ran back to the rear of the plane; oil was pouring out of number 3 engine like a garden hose at full blast! Major oil leak. The engine didn't run out of oil, so its bearings were fine, but there was obviously a blown seal somewhere. I wound up on a conference call with maintenance, the local mechanic, the Chief Pilot, and the VP of operations. Their great brainstorm neuro-surgeon idea? They wanted to fill the engine with oil [4+ gallons], and then have me ferry the plane 2 hours back to Brussels for an engine change!

Yeah right......! I almost laughed at them! Of course, I told them NO! If the FAA finds out you took an airplane that had a defect so bad that you KNEW you were going to have to shut down one of its engines en route they will tear your pilots license to shreds! Not to mention the fact that I needed that engine in order to climb over the Alps, about 25 miles north of the airport...

Their response, and I want all you anti-union types to read this carefully:

"Well, we need you to be a team player with us on this one, we feel it is safe from here in Dallas for you to fly the plane back, and well....if you can't work with us on this then we're going to have to have you come to Dallas...and well, we're going to have to reconsider your employment...."

That's right folks: I refused to do something dangerous, and they threatened to fire me. Did I mention that this job earned me a six figure income? That pays for a lot of 928 parts....

"Well, I'll tell you what. Me and my crew are tired, and we are going to the hotel. You figure out what you are going to do, and when I come out of rest, I'll call you. Good bye"

ALPA kind of sucks, but if ALPA had been on the property? They wouldn't have dared threaten me like that!

The long and short: They had a former Eastern Airlines SCAB who lived in Northern Italy with his wife, and they called him out to fly the plane to Brussels. He got over Germany and had to shut it down too. He took it to Brussels on two engines, and the FAA violated his license for it! He didn't care- he was 59 years old and about to retire anyway.

So you can see, unions are a mixed bag. They are going to take dues from you, and not always look out for your interest. But when the scheize hits the fan, they WILL back you up against management. That alone makes them well worth the costs and trouble in my point of view.

Best of luck/ Fly safe!

N!

They are fairly paid for the value of the goods and services they provide. If you produce $1/day worth of value, that's what you should be paid. Simple.

WRT the flight, I'd tell them you're the pilot in command and the final go/no-go decision is yours. If they don't like it and want to fire you over it, then let them. Do you really want to continue to work for a company like that anyway? Can't have your cake and eat it too. The cargo outfit I flew with (also non-union) knew better. They'd always push you a little over weather ("well, go take a look and see if it's really something you can't get through") but at the end of the day if you ever exercised your authority as PIC to say "no", they backed down.

Sounds like you just happened to fly for a crappy outfit. Or had a crappy dispatcher that day.

Sounds a lot like my FILs experience/stories when he was a PIC for Connie K back in the day flying freight in L1011s etc.... from the sound of it he was/is a dreadful guy to work for...
He always wanted to get on with the purple plane but got to old before a decent opportunity came up.. mixed bag for sure

OTOH my brother is a union rep for commercial food workers (UFCW), what a bunch of DB their leadership was, most of the worst ones got blown out after/during a merger, corrupt as can be from what I heard... ex: they tried to forced him to contribute to campaigns for the union prez (3k+) and busted his balls when he hesitated, ultimately they got their money out of him (rather out of the mouths of his kids). They are in tighter then a tick with the CA politicians playing billions of deals out between themselves...

But he stayed on, he does some good for workers sometimes, but from what he tells me he mostly has to defend a lot of lazy no good workers and deal with a lot of BS most of the time, it's aged him years. :rolleyes:

We don't talk about politics or unions around the Turkey anymore

and what have they done for us lately?

Maybe that's what you're getting at. (?)

The Q (for any group of workers) is; will the parasitic affects of unions negate the potential gains (and then some)? . . . that seems to be the recent norm for most.

Now you are paying someone for a job.
Now you get to see the guys with the $2000.00 suits
that you and your brothers paid for.
The only thing that they protect in the end is thier arse.
Unoins suck!!!!!!

Edited for MHO.

Ha! The aviation guys know exactly what its like in this business without a union! I agree, that *most* unions do protect slackers and can easily run companies into the ground but in avaition, it truly is different. This isnt about protecting weak employees, its about job security. The comments saying, "just leave if you dont like it", etc are totally undoable. Aviation is one of the few industries in which if you leave a company, you start at another at the absolute bottom. Yes, after 20 years working you could be making $200K at American Airlines, be number 200 on the seniority list, have great schedules, leave for whatever reason, and start at Delta and you would be the absolute bottom of the seniority list, with crappy pay, schedules and now making $35K a year. No lateral moves in this industry. Thats why making your current company the best it can be is totally worth the effort. Our union drive was more about job protection than benefits. Stories like Normys are rampant in this industry. Without a union, if that happened here, (which it does from time to time), you absolutely would have been fired with NO recourse.

LeeH, I totally agree that SKW is a great place to work but ask your wife why she flys the same airplanes that ASA does (also owned by SKW Inc.) for less money and has less benefits, etc. They sold their souls on the promise of growth etc, but ASA refused and the union protected them. In the end, they both got growth, etc, but who got the better end of the deal? They also just bought EXJ and if they didnt have a union, they would have been TOTALLY screwed by that merger with ASA. (Thats the short story.)

My grandfather used to tell me about a 50 cal machine gun he kept on the roof of the textile plant (Alabama in the 20's - 30's)) where he was manager.

It sure kept the rif-raf organizers out he said. :)

I'm not union. I'm on a non-union job in PA. The super came around today and said that they had wind some union guy would be on the ROW looking for union members working on a non-union job. If caught, they would lose their union book and be fined. They needed to park somewhere else for a few days. If non-union, we could carry on as usual. Sreange rules!

Ok, then tomorrow I want you to place your spouse and kids on a plane owned by that airline I flew for. You know, the one that threatened to fire its pilots if they refused to fly a plane with a dangerous defect....

Come on, lets see you do it! Put your money [family] where your mouth is-

N!

No one in America from McDonald's on up would be making what they are and having benefits and retirement packages such as they do, if it were not from what Unions had done...

Much less the industrial, mining and other safety regulations and regulators that came from the Unions.

And as said above, if the market doesn't support making those wages, they shouldn't get them. Plain and simple. I have no problem with it. And I have no problem flying for a non-union carrier and would do it again.

Bottom line is if you don't feel confident enough in your own skills, ability and training to work a particular job or career without some union stooge protecting you, then you (1) probably are not very good at that job and (2) shouldn't be doing it. If more people thought this way it'd reduce the supply of people willing to work in certain industries and/or for certain companies with bad reputations for how the treat their people and prices/salaries would adjust accordingly. Additionally since there would be fewer people willing to work for those outfits, they'd (by necessity) be forced to rethink their position with respect to how they treat employees. Amazing thing that free market and its self-correcting mechanisms!

Unions suck. Nothing more than thuggish extortionists who defend ineptitude and incompetence. Total catalysts for a race to the bottom. I have no use for them - none. And I go out of my way to not use union labor to the extent possie in my jobs.

I feel for the folks who ARE good at what they do and are forced to sign on to these should-be-criminal gangs. EVERY state should be "right to work". If they were, you'd see very quickly who the good people are and who the leeches/opportunists are - the ones who would be pumping gas or washing dishes rather than pulling down $50 or $60 an hour for adequate or even sub-par work... You know, the kinds of jobs they'd actually deserve based on their work ethic, ability, skill set and/or confidence.

Market manipulation. We don't need it. If you "need" a union to protect your job then you don't deserve to be working it - plain and simple.

So you have no problem busting FARs to satisfy the needs of the company?

I'd be willing to bet that much of this is a result of union activities and work rules...

He was a 135 guy. That explains everything.