You have some misconceptions about hybrids.
- There is a large battery pack, warranteed for 100K miles, in the real world they (talking Prius here, don't know about others) routinely go 150K+ on the original battery. Because the system is designed to keep the battery in roughly the middle third of its charge range, it is never fully discharged or fully charged, and thus has a very long service life. Most people won't replace the battery for the life of the car.
- There is one internal combustion engine, thus one coolant system, one oil system. It is maintained like any other gas motor - change the oil every several thousand miles, flush the coolant more or less never. The gas engine only runs part of the time, it shuts off when you have lifted off throttle (coasting, stoplights) so it is pretty unstressed.

Thanks for the comments. I really want to consider the TDI, but the reputation is so poor. Not sure what to make of it.

My garage now is a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel truck (when I have to haul), E36 M3 BMW, and a dual sport Suzuki motorcycle. The motorcycle has rendered the M3 useless to me. I can get my kicks on the motorcycle and get 60 mpg, so why keep the M3. If I drove the motorcycle like a hooligan, I know I'd get well over 50 mpg, because I already use the throttle liberally.

My brother wants to buy a first-generation Honda Insight, and he'll probably sell his 85 Merc 300D. I considered buying it and running homebrew biodiesel, but am really wanted something newer. Seems like the cars that got great gas mileage are older cars like the Civic CRX. Despite technology leaps, today's non-hybrid cars don't get better mileage. At this point, I'd like a well-built car that isn't finished like an econobox, but is well short of a luxury car. The Chevy Cruze and non-hybrid Civic are on the list. Fall back is 300D Merc with biodiesel, and crazy man says TDI VW on biodiesel.

That MB 300d sounds like it could be a winner on total $$ outlay upfront and over an extended period of time. However, there are a lot of variables that only you can know.

Lastly, there are several pelican TDI owners. I think the pelican crowd tends to be pretty deliberate about the car purchases they make and I can't recall any threads along the lines of my TDI is a POS. Everything will break eventuallly but I cant imagine some one on a board like this buying a TDI on impulse.

Please let us know what you end up with and your satisfaction with your purchase. I've lusted after those 300TDT (wagons) for a few years...especially one in palamino!

Something like this could be a lot of fun to do.

Honda Insight Tail Extension Project - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
http://lh5.ggpht.com/-VSp6ZjOz-HU/TR.../Collage-a.JPG

I would be interested in hearing how people have faired running homemade biodiesel. Seems like a lot of work.....

The Cruze 'Eco' is the model you want to look at.....

I am averaging 38 mpg on my Golf with about 70% city driving. Also noticed a break in mileage increase after about 1k miles on the odometer. This car sure shines on the interstate where I have averaged 50 mpg doing 65-70 mph. I love road trips and this sure will make it a no-brainer to go take one.

Not counting increased resale value, ROI on fuel savings at the current pricing is 4 years compared to the Mazda3 which I would have bought if I would not have gone for the diesel.

The Hondas are out for me, also the Prius, as they have the awful windshields that are at a 30 degree angle. This creates a visibility problem with the A pillar going across much of what I like to see in city traffic ....

I am also with JYL - fuel will only go up, so better adjust by owning a vehicle that is a sipper.

George

Jyl, you haven't owned or operated a Prius, it seems. I drove two, as company cars, for nearly a year. The first one was a 2009 and had less than 89k on the odometer (primary vehicle). I had to take it to Huntington Beach Toyota 3 times in one year, batteries were replaced each time (one battery starts to go, it takes the rest with it). The second one was a first gen, not sure of the year. It had to batteries replaced once for the same reason as the second-gen car.

I had taken each car once for the 'major' service. There are 2 coolant systems, 2 oil systems. One for the ICE, one for the Electric motor. A/C service was necessary as well. I saw the bill for just one of the cars, it made me glad to own a Carrera, that's for damn sure!

Priuses are all over my neighborhood and town and the owners all say they are nearly trouble free.

Actually, I own a gen 2 Prius and we've put 74K miles on it. Troublefree except the HID headlights. The inverter coolant level is a routine check item, every 15K miles or so. The inverter coolant is not scheduled to be replaced until 150,000 miles. If you got suckered into paying for it to be changed before then, that is too bad. As for the batteries, I guess you got a pair of lemons, battery problems are very unusual. As the batteries are warranteed to 100,000 miles, I hope you did not get suckered into paying for repairs.

Check reliability data at Consumer Reports. The Prius is one of the least troublesome cars on the road.

"Initial engine coolant replacement at 100,000 miles/120 months. Replace every 50,000 miles/60 months thereafter.
Initial inverter coolant replacement at 150,000 miles/180 months. Replace every 50,000 miles/60 months thereafter.
Refer to “Engine/Inverter Coolant” in the “Explanation of Maintenance Items” section in the back of this guide for more information."

Oh, in CA the Prius traction battery is warranted to 150,000 miles.

Slight threadjack, but tell us about the M3 you no longer want!

Ha. It's not an E30 M3. It's the piggish E36 coupe version. Nice car and all, but not practical for my needs. The best bit, the handling, is minimized by the acquisition of motorcycle.

It is a good bit of work, for sure. When diesel prices are below $3/gallon, I do not find biodiesel attractive. At $4/gallon, there is some comfort. That's part of the reason I want to get a car with better mpg, whether it be diesel or gas burner. Do more with less.

EVERYTHING has a carbon footprint -- even hybrids, solar cells, and windmills. :cool:

sammyg2's numbers on page 1 are valid. I have seen those calculations elsewhere, and even did the calculations myself on different hybrid vs. non-hybrid scenarios. On average, I found the break even point for hybrid ownership was 12 to 15 years. At that point, the premium paid for a hybrid car is matched by the savings resulting from fuel efficiency. Now tell me, how many people keep their cars these days for that long?

If you want a fuel-efficient car that you wish to keep around for a long, long time, then a decent echono-box would do the trick. Ford Fiesta, Honda Civic and the like. Or a diesel car, like the VW Jetta.

IMHO, we will have to wait another 5-10 years before we see some really fuel efficient motors and technology. I'm talking about hydrogen powered fuel cells and similar technologies. Right now, the R&D costs are making it impossible to produce a consumer-priced vehicle. Plus the hydrogen fuel delivery infrastructure is basically non-existent at this point.

Until then, the early adaptors will continue to buy hybrids and now, all electric vehicles like the Nissan Leaf and plug in hybrids like the Chevy Volt.

-Z-man.

sammy's numbers are valid if you ignore gasoline inflation, which is a pretty major assumption.

Here's the picture including gasoline inflation. Take a Civic w/ 32 MPG (average city and hwy per sammy's numbers), and a Civic Hybrid w/ 44 mpg (avg), assume 20K miles/year, assume year 1 gas is $3.50/gal. Plug in an annual gasoline inflation assumption. If you use 0%, as sammy does, then by year 10 the cumulative gas cost savings is $5,966. At 5%, $7,504. At 10%, 9,508.

Suppose you drive more, 25K miles/yr, then gas inflation 0% gives $7,457 cumulative gas cost savings by year 10, 5% $9,380, 10% $11,885.

Just eyeballing the chart I posted, gas inflation has been about 10% over the past decade.

Obviously there is the question of how long you'll keep the car. If you sell it after a short time, hybrids have higher resale value. If you keep it for a long time, somewhere after 150K miles (typically, if it is <100K mi it is warranty covered, maybe <150K in CA) you need to budget for a battery (don't know about the Civic, for Prius these are appx $3K), and on the conventional car there is repair cost to budget for also.

Same here

My e36 was cheap to buy, ~2500 4 yrs ago and gets 31mpg every tank. No bells and whistles like a new hybrid, but no comparison in operating costs.

The wife has a Mercury Milan Hybrid, its the same as the ford fusion. She gets 40 combined and drives like she wants. She chose it because she liked the look's of it a little better than the Prius. It is loaded and it didn't seem to cost much more than a loaded out gas milan. We paid 30k and it has leather, nav, ect. Oil changes are at 10k, I guess since the engine is not running part of the time.

Years ago we had a 91 Mercedes 300D. It got something around the mid 30 range and we put 250,000 on it before we got rid or it. But if you have a problem, parts were expensive.

assuming those numbers are correct, you are still asking a question about value to the original owner only (and neglecting resale value too)

if you are asking about carbon inputs, as you lead in sentences suggest, the correct question is not how long the 1st buyer owns the car, but the life of the vehicle (and you then have to also follow the parts & sub-assemblies too)

From Edmunds.com, True Cost To Own over 5 year ownership:

Toyota Prius $36,343
Volkswagen Jetta TDI Sportwagon $46,350
Chevrolet Cruze $44,018

So ~$2k/year less for the Prius. That's pretty significant.

Some other cars like the Honda Civic and Ford Fiesta are about the same as the Prius @~$36K assuming same fuel price for the next 5 years (big assumption), but are far smaller and less practical cars.

Well, if we are talking carbon inputs, then we also must consider the carbon costs associated with the production and destruction of the battery modules. That is more of what I was alluding to when I said "everything has a carbon footprint."

Bottom line -- if you want to save mother earth, a hybrid isn't the answer. Neither is riding a bike, since that also has a carbon footprint. Better off walking to work. (Naked, or wearing hand-woven hemp clothes which will minimize carbon use...) ;)
-Z-man.

buying a hybrid will significantly reduce your pollution impact, including CO2 emissions, as long as you don't crash it right away -- compared to most other vehicles

it's silly to claim otherwise

I never said that a hybrid won't reduce pollution output -- I'm just tired of hybrid folks saying how "green" they are, when in fact there is indeed a carbon 'cost' associated with their car - especially when it comes to the manufacture and disposal of the battery packs. Tell me - what do they do with the spent batteries - the ones that cannot be recycled any further?

But I guess that doesn't matter - since that's someone ELSE's problem, and I can continue feeling smug knowing I'm doing my best to save the planet. Al Gore should be proud!

Just sayin'
-Z-man.

What makes you think they cannot recycle the batteries?

You must live in a real hell hole if your significant problems include "hybrid folks saying how "green" they are."

Are you making "perfect the enemy of good"?

Sure, any car inherently has a substantial environmental "footprint", and the "greenest" choice would be to go carless. "Walk to work naked" as you suggested.

But if you're going to buy a car - like most of us have to - the carless option is pretty irrelevant.

Geez - I didn't mean to piss in anyone's cereal today - apologies if I rubbed you or others the wrong way...

At some point, the batteries cannot be recycled any further, and there are components of them which must be thrown out. Plus there is a carbon footprint associated with the whole recycle process.

My significant problems do not include the level of smugness hybrid folks have. And please note that I am all for NOT abusing our natural resources.

For me, the bottom line is this: automotive technology has always evolved. And until the 'next best thing,' hybrids seem to be the best solution in terms of efficiency and greeness. But that doesn't make them the end-all, though some people believe so.

-Z-man.

ok, tell you friends from me that they are not the end-all

the Volt is a hybrid with the gas motor becoming less important, same for the new MY Prius

I think that will continue, tho the all-elec. battery Leafettes will gain market share too.

I am still waiting for my hotrodded, jacked-up Moon Buggy VW Syncro Camper...

Gosh, VW TDI 5-speed wagons are trading at insane prices. Asking price on a 6 year old VW wagon is $16k.

Still looking for the ideal ride. Thinking about other vehicles, as well. Land Rover 90 or 110 with TDI engine (mid to upper 20 mpg), VW Rabbit diesel pickup (40+ mpg), and any other diesel. The Cruze diesel sounds very nice, but it's 2 years out. Diesel is pushing $4/gallon and gasoline is only 40 cents behind.
Jurgen

I notice everyone throws out the worst mileage a hybrid can get... what is the best?

Hybrids can get superb milage...at the cost of performance. Americans are being sold the performance versions.
But like I said before, hybrid technowlogy is just one means to an end result.

Any vehicle will get substantially better mpg with less weight, harder tires, and better areodynamics. Areodynamics and cruzing speed are the most important factors with highway mpg.

In city driving, I average about 40 mpg on the gen 2 Prius, and can average 45 mpg if I'm careful and use mileage tricks. Wife routinely averages 35 mpg. She is a leadfoot, believes in accelerating to a red light, also thinks the car should be full of stuff all the time.

On the freeway, I can average about 50 mpg at 65 mph. If being a mpg geek, drafting semis in the slow lane etc, I can average well over 60 mpg for the period, but I've never been able to do that for long so don't have a solid whole-tank number. Wife averages 45 mpg, she drives 70-75 mph. This is 1-2 occupants, no luggage, summer time, low rolling resistance tires.

I used to get better mpg but then Oregon switched to ethanol blend gasoline year-round, that costs me a couple mpg. When we have a roof rack and pod on the car, the mpg is a bit worse. On short trips and cold weather, the mpg is notably worse (the engine runs to warm itself up, even when it doesn't need to propel the car). My winter tires hurt some too).

I think the US hybrid mpg champ may be the original Honda Insight (not the current one), because it is a small, light, aero, 2 occupant car, skinny tires.

If you want to include plug-ins, then the potential mpg goes way up, even if you convert the electricity into gasoline equivalent dollars. But only for trips done entirely or mostly within the battery range.

I have a current gen Prius and average around 45mpg. 52mpg if mostly highway, and as low as 39mpg if mostly very short trips. Worst case for a hybrid is when the grocery store or school is only a mile or two away, because the engine turns on for a few minutes whether needed or not to warm up, so for a short trip it's on the whole way. I can get better on the highway but I tend to drive around 80mph around here, if I stayed around 65 it would be better.

I have gotten in the high 80's while "hyper-miling" on back roads. If there is a net loss in altitude, I can easily go over 100mpg. There are techniques you can use that really emphasize mileage, there are web sites devoted to it. It's actually pretty fun in a techie-geek sort of way and one of the reasons that despite being a Porsche/track day guy for life I consider the Prius a fun car to drive.

If I had another 914, I would want one of these: Mahle 1.2L Turbocharged Engine. 161HP / 210 ft/LBs TQ.

I'm at 3K+ miles and still love the JSW. Fits all my stuff (significantly more than a Prius will carry, or my old WRX or GTI) and I'm getting typically mid 30s mpg in combined driving. Perhaps more importantly, I find it to be a great driving environment. Just better design/fit/finish than the Japanese car equivalents. VW/Audi just makes a better interior to my eye and butt. Ymmv.

I just went over 3k too and have been averaging 38 mpg in 70% city driving (surface streets). I pussyfoot it. You are correct on the interior. The seats for example are outstanding. I had my selection down to a 2011 Mazda3 hatch w/ 6 speed and the 2011 TDI Golf w/ 6 speed. The golf wins hands down in fit and finish. The styling sure is a little more timeless too.

I tried to find a used TDI and ended up buying new because it wasn't that much more.

George

I'm in a Prius taxi. This company operates a fleet of Prius taxis, running 24/7. The driver tells me they get 45-50 mpg. No Prius in their fleet has needed a new traction battery before 250K miles. A replacement battery costs them $1800, or they may change the whole drivetrain. The highest mileage Priuses in the fleet have 400K miles. There are a few 2010+ models in the fleet too.