Fuel efficient autos
 

Are there any comparisons between the hybrid and non-hybrid models now that hybrids have been out for a while? For example, which was the better buy: the 07 Civic Hybrid or the 2007 gas-only version? Is the savings worth the extra complexity?

I'd like to get a gas miser vehicle. I would like to see at least 40 mpg combined. The only cars out of the mix are the VW TDI vehicles. I've heard too many bad things about them.

Trying to figure out if it is cheaper to buy a used gas-burner or take a chance on the hybrids.

The only hybrid I have much knowledge about is the Prius. It is reliable, minimal maintenance, no penalty for the complexity. We have about 70K miles on ours, had the HID headlights replaced under warranty and that's it. My father has something like 125K miles on his gen 1 Prius, nothing has gone wrong. A replacement battery is something like $3K now (or you can go all DIY and rebuild a used one), he still doesn't need one.

Real world MPG is indeed high, but is sensitive to how you drive - I get 5 MPG better than my wife - there are habits/tricks to maximizing MPG, you have to learn them, and she ignores them all, accelerates to stoplights and so on. Resale value is generally good, currently is very high given the shortage of Priuses on dealer lots but that will be cured by year-end.

That said, for lowest spend, it is hard to beat a used econobox. The MPG may be lower than the hybrid alternative, but buying used wins out almost every time. Further, it is a bad time to buy a Prius or other hybrid now - production disruptions in Japan have created a major shortage of inventory, plus high gas prices has driven demand up. In general, late model used car prices are high. All this is easing but has just started to ease.

I'd wait until early next year and/or buy a used car.

BTW I've heard good things about the TDIs. If you do a lot of city driving in traffic, a hybrid is better since the engine shuts off. On the open highway, the TDI is every bit as fuel-efficient as the Prius. I'd be irritated at diesel prices though.

I was this close to buying a hybrid... then Calif. pulled them off the diamond lane and that was a deal breaker for me (could have cut my commute from 45 to 30 minutes).

Did a lot of research... hybrids are good for 100K miles before they start needing expensive maintenance (generally speaking)

The new gas only Hyundai Elantra gets a claimed 40 mpg.

There is a Pruis BBS much like this where you can learn a lot.

Be prepared for the hybrid haters that will post here in 3... 2... 1...

My civic get's 30mpg around town, not sure about freeway mileage yet. I think it'll be tough to find real world 40mpg combined out of a non hybrid. I've only driven one hybrid (Altima) & didn't care for the way it drove. I paid $16.2K for mine, tough for me to justify the extra money for a hybrid at this point. Almost bought a Fit until I sat in one. Love my Civic.

1994 Geo Metro 53/58mpg... The holy grail: 82 mpg in a Geo Metro XFi - MetroMPG.com

http://static.cargurus.com/images/si...080910187.jpeg

No hatin, just facts:

Just exactly what savings are you refering to?
The MSRP of a civic hybrid is over $8k more than a comparable non-hybrid civic.
Honda Civic

Add to that the additional stealer mark-up for a hybrid, and you'd be paying a lot of money for that smug.

The hybrid "gets up to 44 cty/44 hwy mpg".

The conventional civic with the 1.8 liter engine "gets Up to 28 cty/36 hwy mpg".
So figure it probably ends up around 30.

So the hybrid gets "up to" 14 mpg better than the regular civic.

Suppose you bought both the civic hybrid and the conventional sedan.
say the hybrid cost $9000 more.
Then you drive them both 100,000 miles. that's assuming the batteries lasted that long.

In the regular civic you'd burn 3333 gallons of gas.
In the hybrid you'd burn 2272 gallons of gas.

At $3.50 a gallon, you'd save $3713.50 in gas.

So in which math class do they teach that is makes sense to spend $9000 to save $3700?
You'd have to drive it 243,000 miles without major repairs to break even!

That's for a 2011 car.

So what about a 2007 used civic hybrid?
Used TMV from $14,361 for the hybrid, Used TMV from $9,890 for the civic sedan.
You'd still be paying almost a $4500 premium for the hybrid, and that's for a 4 year old car that's close to being half used up.

If you bought a 2007 civic hybrid and put 50,000 miles on it, you'd save close to $1900 in gas, but it'd cost you $2900 MORE to own the hybrid.
You'd do better at trade-in time but not enough to break even.

the ONLY way a hybrid civic would make financial sense is if the the GUBMINT paid you to drive it.

but my wife keeps telling me "it's not about the money, it's saving the earth" I'm not buying one. Let Algor save the earth.

That's a good point. Hybrids can be made to be extremely fuel-efficient, but they are currently programmed to satisfy American lead-foot traffic conditions and consumer demand.
At the same time, the fuel economy on many popular brands are the same(or even worse) as 30 years ago.

So consumers are getting squeezed: Purchase an outrageously-priced hybrid, or get poor milege in the cheaper gas version.

FWIW, the gas vehicles of today usually test 0-20ppm HC, versus 50-200ppm HC with those before the 1980s.

If all you care about is saving money over the term of ownership, buy a used, small displacement motorcycle and you're done. Nothing can touch it.
Or if you insist on a car, a $2k Honda Civic or something similar.

I bought a Prius because I had some size requirements for my family that only a midsize wagon or small SUV could hit. My Prius can hold a 911 long hood, 2 RSR bumpers, headlights, a ducktail, a toolbox and a box of random parts easily. Or two mountain bikes. Or 5 people. Or a 7 foot tall Christmas tree. So I was looking at the Prius, or maybe an Audi/VW wagon or something like a Honda CRV. I also wanted something new, not used.

So for comparable vehicles, it was at the low end price-wise and blew everything else away in mileage and resale value. The only thing close was a VW TDI, but since our Prius is used as 99% for short trips around town, it gets way better mileage than the TDI and no diesel fuel hassles.

The engineer in me also likes how the Prius takes waste heat from braking and engine idling which would otherwise be dissipated and coverts that to useful stored energy.

I couldn't care less about saving the planet. The planet is just fine, it doesn't need my help. I'd happily buy a non-hybrid that does what I need better than a Prius, as soon as one exists. If I missed a better car for my needs, let me know what it is.

This isn't quite in that league of mileage, but I had a new Chevy Cruze for a couple of weeks recently. I was really surprised at how high the mileage was.

At 60-65 on the highway, over a long period of time, it got right around 40 mpg. At 75 mph it still got around 38 mpg. This is average over hundreds and hundreds of miles. With passengers and a lot of luggage, etc.

Total for the two weeks in combined driving was a little over 30 mpg.

This is not a small car, and it had plenty of power. Surprising.

I also drove a Prius for a bit. Not the current model, the one right before it.

I'm really surprised people like those. Way too slow in modern traffic, and the engine feels and sounds like a lawnmower engine. The driving dynamics are horrible. That huge cheap black plastic dash is a monstrosity, too. It seemed to get around 44 mpg on the highway.

You might want to search this forum, lots of good stuff in there.

Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - Ecomodder.com Fuel Economy Forum

The hybrid batteries will obviously last for 100K miles, since they are warranteed for that long. Real world experience is that on average they last much, much longer.

I'm not betting on gas prices staying $3.50/gal for the next decade. The trend is up, up, up.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310058704.jpg

There is a value to predictability. When gas prices fluctuate violently, it is nice to have one's expenses more stable. Remember all the moaning here when gas recently shot to near $4? The higher your MPG, the less you notice.

So far the TDI is getting around 33mpg around town, 40+ on the fwy (and evidently that improves as the engine breaks in). Diesel prices are coming down but it still is a bit over 91 octane prices. No regrets at this point as I like the interior, DSG and torque on the VW way more than any of the other alternatives. As long as I stay out of the shop I'll be golden...

my sister is on their second tdi jetta wagon only because they got some water damage from a leaking sun roof after 5+ years of fairly trouble free driving. they got a great trade in value compared to having to do a carpet and other interior replacement. the new one isnt quite as good milage wise but they can still do the 400+ mile trip to my parents on a little over 1/2 tank of fuel.

they never got less than 40mpg on the old one and easily were getting close to 60mpg on a couple of long road trips. gass up in the morning and you are good to go for the day. pitstops consisted of food and bathroom use. not a bad snow car for denver to Santa Fe several times a year.

why not the new plug in Prius?

or a Chevy Volt? (not real cheap tho)

anybody that thinks gas will stay under $/gal. for very long should also buy land in Florida

We drove a VW Passat TDI wagon about 2K miles all over England last summer, and it was loaded with four of us plus baggage and got great mileage I'd guess 35+mpg . usually had to stop once or twice to clean the windshield between fill ups.
It took some getting used to the driving characteristics, very little grunt down low revs.
It did very well at highway speeds.

Cheers Richard

I am amazed at how much driving habits change mpg. Believe it or not, I get about 28-30 mpg out of my 93 maxima. Being a 5 speed helps, as well as coasting to stop lights, down hills, and not using brakes unless needed. I have to really try to get good mpg, but it is possible. Like Jeremy Clarkson stated, "It's not what you drive, it's how you drive it".

We've rented a couple of diesel wagons while on holiday - an Opel and a Peugeot - and both were spectaculary economical, with better performance than I ever would have expected. With that in mind, I'll be all over a Jetta TDI wagon when comes in a year or so for the E39 to go away.

Must be a different engine. The US TDI has 236 ft/lbs of torque - tons of grunt down low. What you don't have is a bunch of hp on the top end.

Like others have said, if you're basing your decision on pure economics, it's cheaper to get a non-hybrid than a hybrid. The price premium of the hybrid powertrain exceeds the savings in gasoline consumption unless you're planning on holding the vehicle for many, many years.

FWIW, over the 3 years and 45K miles I've had my gasoline-powered Civic, I probably average around 35-36 mpg. On the highway I can eke out up to 42 mpg on a tank. I don't think I've ever gotten lower than about 32 mpg. The hybrid Civic would have cost me about $5-6K more, comparing purchase prices.

But as jyl pointed out, driving style counts. I work at getting good mileage in the Civic (while keeping up with the flow of traffic). When I lend the car to my wife or others, I see the mileage drop down by several mpg. I always shake my head and wonder when I see Prius (or other hybrid) drivers floor their cars from stoplights.

I'm pretty sure it was a different engine. Seems to me that that it was a 1.6 turbo. At any rate it was gutless under about 2,500 revs. then it would come on nicely. I remember thinking at the time that it was the most car with that small of an engine that i had come across. Sure got good mpg!!

Cheers Richard

My tdi 2.0 Golf averages 60 mpg on the daily trip to work. I usually sit at 75 almost the whole journey. Many of the new smaller tdi's over here are getting close to 80mpg. The new ford fiesta appears superb on the fuel.
Hybrids just seem a waste of time and expense.

I think you're right (about the diesel vs.hybrid question), the modern small diesels for passenger cars are amazing. Their driving dynamics, cost and economy make them generally a more compelling deal than a hybrid. Unfortunately unlike Europe, there are very few diesel cars available in our car market. I was recently in Europe and saw the cornucopia of diesel powered passenger cars available over there, Corolla's, PT Cruisers, Accords, Mini's.......almost everything seemed to have a "D" or "TDI" version. If fuel prices continue on their multi year trend (up), seems to me that this is the way to go. Cheers

once you settle on some choices, take the delta in price and your annual mileage to compare with what fuel price will make it a break even

also realize that gas hogs will lose value rapidly as fuel prices escalate, so there are resale/trade-in issues also


generally, a hybrid makes more sense in town or on hilly secondary roads, in the mtns. etc

diesels make more sense on straight fwy. shots, esp. long-distances and if built right, for longevity

if you do choose a compression ignition motor, why not just buy a used Benz?

Because they are huge and don't get the mileage of the smaller/lighter VW's.

Expect 35 MPG (at best) in Mercedes, which is well under his target.

yes, but it is also much cheaper than a new car

you can buy a nice D going back to the early 60's that runs like a top

'09 Jetta TDI DSG wagon owner. 35K miles. Oil changes and fuel only. DSG requires $250 service at 40K miles. So far, it has been a really good car but is run in the summer only (subie outback has winter duty). There are several TDIs sitting on the work parking lot year around.

Not negative on TDIs at all, I love the diesels in Europe, just noting:
- UK gallons are 20% larger than US gallons, so UK MPG figures are misleadingly high if compared directly to US MPG figures. Take every UK MPG figure and cut by 20% for American readers.
- The more stop-start city traffic you drive in, the more benefit you get from the hybrid systems, which turn the engine off when coasting and stopped, and use regenerative braking.
- Small diesels in the US have less performance than you might think. For example, the smallest-engined Golf TDIs in the UK do 0-60 in 12-13 sec. For those who think the US Prius is too slow at 10.5 sec . . .

I know you don't want to here of another TDI love story......

I have an 01 (285,000 miles and 50 mpg) and a 2011 (4000 miles and 40mpg).

I here Ford has a bunch of cars that get 40mpg:D

WORD!

My 1986 Yamaha Virago 750: Drove it from SloCal to Tucson AZ... Averaged 68mpg fully-loaded, with windshield, crusing at 70-80 mph. I refilled every 185-190 miles.

You CAN'T beat that. When I was on half the income I had now I rode it everywhere. $8.50-$9.00 to fill it up and I could ride for almost 2 weeks before needing to fill up again.

The funny thing is, you could do that drive in a couple different cars today, get 60 mpg all the way, and no bugs in your teeth, a/c, tunes, wear flip-flops, airbags and ABS. Cars have come a long way. In 10 years, I think we'll laugh at how crummy the mpg of the Prius and TDIs were. You know if the US car fleet had the average mpg of the European car fleet, we wouldn't have to mobilize the army every time some Arab country has a snit, and Chavez would be just another hard-luck banana dictator.

So why is it that the US market has so few small cars with diesel engines? Seems like a no brainer.

Because big fat folks want big fat cars. They won't sell (enough)...

http://www.celsias.com/media/uploads...guy_in_car.jpg

Hysterical environmentalists that turn pale at the thought of all that evil soot clogging their delicate lungs.

Doesn't matter that it isn't true. One guy was stuck behind an old diesel Benz one day, so there. :rolleyes:

Can you please show me a few examples of these vehicles that cost less than $2500 initially and less than $300 annually in maintenance?

If they are so readily available and can so easily be acquired here, please give me examples (local classifieds help) and I may look at buying one.

So I looked for myself, and amongst the results of 'cars' that could get 60+mpg, I found the Honda Insight ($19,000) and a plethora of gas or diesel Fords and VWs that are not allowed in the U.S.

I don't see how that kind of price tag can compete the with price tag of even a new motorcycle that can get the same gas mileage or better and has less maintenance cost. And yes, the maintenance costs on those hybrids becomes astronomical when you have to replace a ton of batteries, flush two coolant systems, do two oil changes, etc etc etc.

IMHO the "benefit" of having the hybrid costs so much more than the other options. It's almost the same or a net-loss.

not real clear on how they work, eh?