blues fest stage colapse discusion

[lane912]

some of you engineering and legal type folks might find this interesting...
from a industry forum, a bit more info than the news would tell you-

The LightNetwork

[Mrmerlin]

care to copy the info and post it,
gotta join to see what your sellin

[Mark Henry]

My guess is he's talking about the Ottawa bluesfest stage collapse.

Ottawa Bluesfest stage collapse 'a freak situation' - Canada - CBC News

[lane912]

ok so i have cut from the lighting forum the following stuff---

[lane912]

Hey, now that the issue of the stage failure has been addressed, does anyone else think we need to discuss who, in their right mind, would book Cheap Trick for a BLUESFEST??? Just Sayin...
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From: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 21 Jul 14:43
To: LVPete 22 of 47

32533.22 in reply to 32533.21
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/cheap-trick-manager-i-cant-believe-were-alive-20110718





Larry Robbins (Uncle Fester) Las Vegas, NV Freelancer at large "Will light for food"
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From: LVPete 21 Jul 15:00
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 23 of 47

32533.23 in reply to 32533.22
HAHA...do you know where i can rent a 5 neck guitar? priceless!
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From: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 21 Jul 15:02
To: LVPete 24 of 47

32533.24 in reply to 32533.23
First find someone to play it...


Larry Robbins (Uncle Fester) Las Vegas, NV Freelancer at large "Will light for food"
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From: LVPete 21 Jul 15:14
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 25 of 47

32533.25 in reply to 32533.24
That wouldn't be a "cheap trick"... oh that was terrible...
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From: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 21 Jul 15:17
To: LVPete 26 of 47

32533.26 in reply to 32533.25
I don't know if you ever caught their Sargent Pepper Show here but it was bad. Lighting was even worse.




Larry Robbins (Uncle Fester) Las Vegas, NV Freelancer at large "Will light for food"
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From: LiteDork 21 Jul 15:55
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 27 of 47

32533.27 in reply to 32533.22
I'm sure you know Phil Spector pitched John Lennon on doing a record with Cheap Trick as his backing group....


Robert Mokry
LightParts Inc.
www.swinginjohnsonsband.com
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From: LVPete 21 Jul 16:00
To: LiteDork 28 of 47

32533.28 in reply to 32533.27
wow, I so want to make a joke about Phil Spector talking to John Lennon but some sense of decorum is keeping me from typing and hitting enter...anyone?
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From: TREYDESTA (TREY HENSLEY) 21 Jul 20:43
To: LVPete 29 of 47

32533.29 in reply to 32533.21
"Jane's Addiction" played the night before


Trey Hensley
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not or will not understand, no explanation is possible.
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From: synapse_gh 22 Jul 01:04
To: PaulP (PAULPP) 30 of 47

32533.30 in reply to 32533.1
I happened to be in downtown Ottawa today and took a walk past the site. Holy cow, what a mess. Three photos below:

http://i.imgur.com/CMRsk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MTla0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/a5uEQ.jpg


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From: PaulP (PAULPP) 22 Jul 02:25
To: synapse_gh 31 of 47

32533.31 in reply to 32533.30
unbeliveable!

Paul Pelletier
Product Manager Controllers
Martin Professional A/S
paul.pelletier@martin.dk
http://www.martin.com

paul@paul-pelletier.com
http://www.paul-pelletier.com
EEL 7512 certified and Torkel Compliant (Cert # 184795)
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From: tadawson 22 Jul 04:41
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 32 of 47

32533.32 in reply to 32533.22
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/cheap-trick-manager-i-cant-believe-were-alive-20110718

I'm just dying to know who he thinks builds roof truss with rivets . . . . . .

- Tim


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Last edited: 22 Jul 04:41 by tadawson
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From: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 22 Jul 05:11
To: tadawson 33 of 47

32533.33 in reply to 32533.32
Guess he thought it was riviting experience ..... Har har har
Larry Robbins (Uncle Fester) Las Vegas, NV Freelancer at large "Will light for food"
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From: tadawson 22 Jul 05:14
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 34 of 47

32533.34 in reply to 32533.33
"Always like to keep my audience riveted" . . . Sheriff Bart, Blazing Saddles . . . .

- Tim


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From: Etcfieldeng 22 Jul 12:03
To: ALL 35 of 47

32533.35 in reply to 32533.32
He possibly meant to say grommets. Having heard the sound of grommets being torn out of a canvas roof during high wind is not something I will soon forget.

Lin Wheeler
Electronic Theatre Controls, Inc.


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From: synapse_gh 26 Jul 19:04
To: Etcfieldeng 36 of 47

32533.36 in reply to 32533.35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSQsSV0QL3c

Just gets scarier...
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From: PaulP (PAULPP) 26 Jul 19:37
To: synapse_gh 37 of 47

32533.37 in reply to 32533.36
From 3 sec into the video you can see the truss balacing back in forth in the wind, this must have created a balancier effect on the roof... not helping...
PaulP
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From: wiggledoc 26 Jul 23:08
To: ALL 38 of 47

32533.38 in reply to 32533.37
This is only my observation from what I have seen in stills and this video, but it appears that the ballast that they had was too close to the tower legs. Like a flat bridle, the force exerted is multiplied by the angle of the pull. It appears that the ballast is right up against the stage, so it is only effective in a direct upload from wind. In the case of lateral forces, it is almost ineffective.

Also, the ballast seems to be stacks of blocks of concrete. Some still have a ratchet strap holding them together. Like a chain, the stack of blocks is only as strong as the strap or the weight of the top block. I don't know what the straps were rated for as ballast devices. I would have also preferred a wear pad or burlap between the edge of the block and the ratchet strap.

These are only my observations from the limited information available online. I wasn't there. I am not deriding the supplier or the staff who built the structure.


My $0.02
WD
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From: synapse_gh 27 Jul 00:16
To: wiggledoc 39 of 47

32533.39 in reply to 32533.38
http://i.imgur.com/CMRsk.jpg

Shows the toppled concrete-block stacks...
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From: wiggledoc 27 Jul 01:10
To: synapse_gh 40 of 47

32533.40 in reply to 32533.39
That was my point. They are very close to the base of the towers. That makes them less effective against a lateral load. Typically, we go 1/3 of the tower height away from the base for stability. Obviously the further away from the top of the tower, the better. It almost looks like the towers were strapped directly to the blocks. You can still see the one strap arpound the blocks and it looks like there is some sort of plate on top.

[lane912]

From: Patrick T. Caezza (PALADINLSD) 27 Jul 05:15
To: wiggledoc 41 of 47

32533.41 in reply to 32533.38
I only see ratchet-straps wrapped around the one of the blocks, I don't see anything holding the block stacks together or what might have been holding them together and failed. It just looks like they stacked the blocks and left it at that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick T. Caezza

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
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From: wiggledoc 27 Jul 18:40
To: Patrick T. Caezza (PALADINLSD) 42 of 47

32533.42 in reply to 32533.41
In one of the pictures, there is a strap around the top block horizontal to the ground(top block in the middle). In the same picture there is a strap over the stack of blocks(closest to center stage). In picture http://i.imgur.com/CMRsk.jpg


WD
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From: mwalkermw 29 Jul 23:42
To: ALL 43 of 47

32533.43 in reply to 32533.42
A followup in the news today on the one from 2 years ago for anyone curious:

Big Valley Jamboree charged in fan's death - Calgary - CBC News


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Walker
mike (@t) mikewalker (d.t) ca
+1-403-560-8875

Event Lighting & Scenic Design, WYSIWYG Previsualization & CAD, Media Server Programming | Mike Walker.ca


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From: xrunner1 2 Aug 12:57
To: ALL 44 of 47

32533.44 in reply to 32533.43


Looks like cheap Trick won't perform on a berger stage anymore!!

Cheap Trick Cancel Sept. Show | Pollstar - The Concert Hotwire
Dylan Rogers
Head of Lighting
Cirque Du Soleil - KOOZA
Currently touring Japan until June 2012
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From: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 2 Aug 14:11
To: ALL 45 of 47

32533.45 in reply to 32533.44
Read the comment at the bottom by a stagehand that worked on the stage that fell with the Mega Stage tech Bluesfest Collapse Explained | Pollstar - The Concert Hotwire

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From: lavatech (LAVA) 3 Aug 06:12
To: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 46 of 47

32533.46 in reply to 32533.45
If the comment on Eric's link is true wow.... just wow.

"I am a techn ician who was helping the one Berger employee cut steel cables used to replace straps that had been cut the night The Black Keys played. Those cut straps allowed the walls to flap freely. After that night Stephan Berger was pissed off at the expense of the straps and, he ordered his guy to use steel so that we COULDN'T cut the walls away so easily."

[lane912]

Looks like the band/MGMT is taking a stand against the unsafe stages!!


Cheap Trick Cancel Sept. Show | Pollstar - The Concert Hotwire




Dylan Rogers
Head of Lighting
Cirque Du Soleil - KOOZA
Currently touring Japan until June 2012
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From: LVPete 2 Aug 12:56
To: xrunner1 2 of 22

32618.2 in reply to 32618.1
Yeah. Once bitten...
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From: Keith Kankovsky (KELITE) 2 Aug 20:36
To: LVPete 3 of 22

32618.3 in reply to 32618.2
Not being a staging guy, would most (properly built) stages withstand 100 mph gusts?

(Not being snarky, just honestly curious)


Keith Kankovsky
Apollo Design Technology

Exclusive US distributor of Spotlight architectural and Multiform LED fixtures.

See our non-hazardous laser cut gobos, gel, and other gear at Apollo Design | Home
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From: LVPete 2 Aug 21:14
To: Keith Kankovsky (KELITE) 4 of 22

32618.4 in reply to 32618.3
I would doubt that most ground supported or flown temporary roofs would be able to withstand that kind of wind with the sails attached, at trim height. It is hard to predict downbursts or straight line winds. Not being there and only getting the basics of the story don't allow for much more than guessing. I've been in a similar situation in Ohio back in the early 90's. We were able to get the front and rear truss down in time (still crushing the drum kit) so it didn't blow away, but the SR stack laid back. No one was injured (except for all of the stagehands that didn't get paid because the promoter ran with the gate receipts and was never seen again). Load out just plain sucked.

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Last edited: 2 Aug 21:15 by LVPete
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From: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 2 Aug 22:50
To: Keith Kankovsky (KELITE) 5 of 22

32618.5 in reply to 32618.3
Depends on the manufacturer, but in short, hell no. Most won't rate over 30mph.
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From: Eric Johnson (ERICTHEGEEK) 3 Aug 00:04
To: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 6 of 22

32618.6 in reply to 32618.5
Even a properly built and assembled temporary structure can't withstand everything nature can dish out. The best weather forecasting can't predict every major weather event with enough notice to evacuate tens of thousands of people.

Some questions for the sake of discussion:
Can a major outdoor event be made safe enough for today's liability environment?

If tornado-force winds strike a permanent venue and injures attendees, is the host more or less responsible than if a tornado strikes a temporary venue and the same thing happens?

Should you cancel the event any time there's even the slightest change of something environmental happening (wind, rain, lightning, grass fire, direct sun [sunstroke], disease carrying insects [West Nile, Lyme], etc). What level of certainty? 1% chance? 0.1% chance?

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From: MLBOY 3 Aug 02:38
To: Eric Johnson (ERICTHEGEEK) 7 of 22

32618.7 in reply to 32618.6
"Can a major outdoor event be made safe enough for today's liability environment?"

I would argue it can be to a reasonable extent. HOWEVER, the first thing you have to do is get rid of the roof and the backdrops. They are nothing but SAILS and cause 90% of the problems. If you're just dealing with lighting and PA truss then it is much easier to design something that can handle the winds.


Scott Blair

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From: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 3 Aug 04:39
To: Eric Johnson (ERICTHEGEEK) 8 of 22

32618.8 in reply to 32618.6
As I said in another post, MSR Stageline is an extremly well engineered product that rates their stages for 60 MPH with windwalls 90 MPH without. I see a lot of crappy weather, but 90 MPH is quite unusual...The windwalls can be released in under a minute by one guy. With nearly 500 units out there, MSR pride themselves in the fact that they have never had a failure. They were first to do it, and all the other truck based stages are flawed copies of their designs. So to limit the liability as far as having the stage fall over and kill people, I would start by insisting on one of those or a real building.
As far as overall liability issues on outdoor shows, bad weather hits sheds all the time, howling wind and rain, swinging trusses, sending stagehands scrambling to strike backdrops, cover backline, fight an unwinable fight against all the chaos that ensues when that dream of a magic night under the stars is turned into another war story. Doesn't seem to stop them from coming. Remember the case a few years ago where a patron was electrocuted by bad wiring in an egress light built into the seats in a rainstorm. And don't forget the horror of Roskilde 10 years ago...
In the end apparently people think its worth it- promoters, bands ( us!) and patrons- to have a great show under the stars. Each for their own reasons- money on the production side, and that desire for fun and shared experience- the perfect concert memory on the fan side. Most promoters buy the rain insurance, but they and the band management knows that if the people are willing to come and stand there thru the storm, they need to play- it's the contract between rockstar and the music fan. People can say anything- I recently did a comedy show where over 400 people called the venue for refunds the next day because the comedian was late and not funny- safe to say it will get around and next time, people wont come. But as long as there are fans and systems for managing risks on people, outdoor shows will continue, west nile or no. Question is will the system be internal or external? Will a stupid failure that could have been prevented lead to government regulation of this business. It has in other countries...
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From: MLBOY 3 Aug 05:54
To: Eric Kennedy (EKLD) 9 of 22

32618.9 in reply to 32618.8
"Will a stupid failure that could have been prevented lead to government regulation of this business. It has in other countries... "

Yes. Because clearly lessons have not been learned and they seem to be happening at an increasing rate, rather than a decreasing rate.

It really sucks for all the people that have been doing it the right way all along, but there are far too many doing it the wrong way out there.


Scott Blair

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From: synapse_gh 3 Aug 07:16
To: MLBOY 10 of 22

32618.10 in reply to 32618.9
Couple years ago I had to be the one to make the call to shut down a show with the headliner on stage and 10,000 people in the audience, when a lightning storm landed on the site.

People were still booing and throwing bottles at the stage as fork lightning was striking a few hundred yards away - often people will ignore amazing peril to see a band play a few songs, it's staggering!
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From: MLBOY 3 Aug 07:38
To: synapse_gh 11 of 22

32618.11 in reply to 32618.10
Generally, people in large groups are stupid it seems. Glad to hear that you made the right decision. Out of curiosity, did others in the management support your decision after you made it or was there flack?


Scott Blair

[lane912]

No flack, everyone was too busy running for cover.

When I say lightning was hitting the site, I'm talking hair on the back of the neck standing up kind of scary...
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From: Mats Karlsson (CUELIST) 3 Aug 08:47
To: MLBOY 13 of 22

32618.13 in reply to 32618.11
"Generally, people in large groups are stupid it seems."

Yes, and as evidence, just look at recent events in Washington DC.






Mats Karlsson

Development Manager - VER (Video Equipment Rentals)
VER - Video Equipment Rentals - Home

mkarlsson (at) verrents (dot) com

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From: Ben C (BCLIGHTING) 3 Aug 13:03
To: MLBOY 14 of 22

32618.14 in reply to 32618.9
I have to wonder if these things are happening more or if we are just hearing about more of them due to the internet.

Within minutes there could be a dozen videos on youtube now with everyone having smart phones. A few years ago this would have been unheard of.

It reminds me of high speed car chases in LA. You see so many of them because every news station has a helicopter. In other cities there may be a few car chases as well but since there is no way to cover them you won't know about it until days later.

I'm sure there are a few more of them since the price to acquire such rigs has gone down but I also think the news of failures gain so much traction because of that world wide web thingy.
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From: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 3 Aug 13:32
To: MLBOY 15 of 22

32618.15 in reply to 32618.11
I think everyone is missing the point here....

Anytime Cheap Trick cancels a show it's a godsend....... LOL...




Larry Robbins (Uncle Fester) Las Vegas, NV Freelancer at large "Will light for food"
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From: LVPete 3 Aug 13:53
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 16 of 22

32618.16 in reply to 32618.15
They want you to Want them!
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From: Keith Kankovsky (KELITE) 3 Aug 14:52
To: Uncle Fester (UNCFES) 17 of 22

32618.17 in reply to 32618.15
(Although I would take the Trick over Beiber any day of the week...)


Keith Kankovsky
Apollo Design Technology

Exclusive US distributor of Spotlight architectural and Multiform LED fixtures.

See our non-hazardous laser cut gobos, gel, and other gear at Apollo Design | Home
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From: BB (BRAD_BARNHILL) 4 Aug 03:03
To: ALL 18 of 22

32618.18 in reply to 32618.17
The last sentence in the Pollstar Link includes important topics and is a step to make the situation much more visible. “Was it a design flaw? Was it an implementation mistake? These are important questions that must be answered,” Frey said. “ Now patrons that purchased tickets are being impacted and will likely further check into what happened becoming more educated in the process. Having seen engineering documentation on entertainment structure rated to 90 mph wind loading as an example, high wind loads for specific applications are possible to achieve with appropriate application design and appropriate manufacturing techniques.

Believe accepted code in the USA references minimum 40 mph for temporary outdoor staging structures, ANSI e1.2000-2006. Not doubting the mobile staging product has a place in some market, so really would like to get further informed. Just pulled up the sheet for sl320 from the website and it does reference “wind resistance: 90 mph (145km/h) without windwalls / 60 mph (97 km/h) with windwalls”. On the second page of the same, there is a front elevation view with reference of “up to 72’ ” Xstage dimension which appears to be outside SL banner edge to outside SR banner edge X 26’-4” high. Since the products are “certified by professional engineers in every state and province”, guessing it’s not too difficult to produce a stamped document that shows this configuration to be rated for even the lower60 mph cited. Presuming that the engineering will also help confirm that the referenced 18,000 lb (“roof maximum load capacity”) and 4000 lb per side PA can be placed on that configuration in a 60 mph wind condition ? Maybe going through this example will be beneficial on many levels ?

Brad Barnhill

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From: LVPete 4 Aug 17:00
To: BB (BRAD_BARNHILL) 19 of 22

32618.19 in reply to 32618.18
I'm kind of surprised that some money grubber hasn't tried to claim the failure on man made climate change, therefore bypassing the Act of God Clause. Wouldn't it be funny to see people that don't believe in Climate Change trying to use it to make an insurance claim... I think the Irony would be so great the moon would shift in its orbit...
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From: PaulP (PAULPP) 01:35
To: LVPete 20 of 22

32618.20 in reply to 32618.19
Very good one!

I'm sure some New York or LA layers could defend this cause very well...


Paul Pelletier
Product Manager Controllers
Martin Professional A/S
paul.pelletier@martin.dk
Martin Entertainment

paul@paul-pelletier.com
Paul Pelletier (dot) com
EEL 7512 certified and Torkel Compliant (Cert # 184795)

[David]

It looks the number of diagonal supports on the lower section vertical supports were lacking and they were placed at the wrong angle, i.e. too far from 45°.

[lane912]

lots of issues with this stage set up. and the band made the right decision not to play on a stage set up by this company

[1990C4S]

Now it reads like a post from ODDJOB.

[sammyg2]

Speaking of blues, how'd you like to be 11 years old and have a back-up band with talent like this, and to be able to play like that?

[azasadny]

Wow!!

[sammyg2]

Here he is at age 12 opening for Buddy guy, wonder how good he's gonna be by the time he hits puberty?

[sammyg2]

And what, you might ask, does 12 year old Quinn Sullivan have to do with the Ottawa bluesfest?
He played there for the second year in a row. I'm assuming this was filmed before the stage collapse:

[kach22i]

Trees were brought down and power lost in several parts of the city, with most of the damage from the storm was located in the city's south and west.

Good thing the band got out of there when they did.