If only British citizens had something to protect themselves....
 

Rioting spreads to third British city - World news - Europe - msnbc.com

Oh the humanity. If only British citizens and business owners had something to defend themselves with. A weapon of some kind that fit in the hand, yet could dispatch an assailant from a safe distance. That would be a welcome respite from this sticky wicket.

You're not allowed to defend yourself there. You can't use a kitchen knife to kill an intruder wanting to rape your wife. I even read B&E is not a crime there if no physical harm is done to the homeowner. What good are weapons when any use of them lands you in prison?

I would think twice about shooting that assailant when probably all his buddies have a spoon too.. And they would quickly turn on you... (I suppose that when everybody is allowed to carry, the bad guys would be carrying also, no?)
It would be very easy to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of a gunfight...
Or am I seeing this wrong?



I'm not opposed to spoons at all (Actually, Stijn's spoon thread made my itch even worse...)

You've seen too many American movies. Most thugs don't carry guns. They are so rarely challenged, that they don't have to. Maybe the real gang bangers in American inner cities carry more often, but the kind of hooligans who cause riots and protest the World Bank meetings would run with soiled shorts if ever faced down by an armed citizen. They know cops will only use tear gas and rubber bullets and they are prepared for that.

One of the Brits' comments on that link sums up one aspect of the problem very well... and is equally true for the U.S. as well as any country that operates a similar pervasive "government assistance" insanity.

"The underlying problem is the destruction of the family. The result is a generation of immoral, unprincipled, uneducated alleycats charitably called men who prey on and freely impregnate equally immoral and vunerable young women. Chances are that most of these lousy young vandals and petty thiefs were "raised" by these unwed mothers who are encouraged in their unhealthy lifestyles by the promise of receiving totally unearned "benefits" (ie., welfare/charity/handouts - money earned by their working and contributing neighbors, and heavily "appropriated" by our uninspired taxing agencies to simply hand out to the unproductive drones in our society - thus perpetuating our dying welfare state).

Until personal virtue and the sanctity of family are taught in our schools and re-enthroned in our communities, these riots in the streets and the related vandalism and pillaging (stealing) by those crooks who will never be satisfied with the level of their unearned government handouts will only increase until we have total anarchy."

Seeing as I am in the midst of this it might surprise some that guns 'might' make things worse rather than better.

Sure it would be 'nice' to think that I could 'defend' my home from attack if I had a gun. On the other hand if these rioters had easier access to guns (which they might well, legal or not) then the situation itself might be a whole lot worse than it already is....

On balance the lack of guns is possibly a better one at the moment here.

Wouldn't that be nice to read in the paper here in the US instead of their normal drivel?

When ever a criminal is interviewed, the one thing that they fear is an armed victim.

Case in point:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oSLBBUZCJC4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

These "boys" are substantially similar to the ones described by the above posters

Whenever I want to see what is going to happen to us, I look at the UK. Once the preeminent world power, now a third world country, powerless, full of immigrants who hate the British and angry miscreants.... This is what awaits us...

The vast majority of damage has been done to commercial and public buildings,not to housing or people, where mobs of hundreds of people have been rampaging, looting and setting afire, very many of whom are children.
You going to shoot 10 year olds?
Unfortunately both the Prime Minister and the Mayor of London were out of the country on vacation but they are back now and we now might see the police firing rubber bullets and deploying water cannon if the rioting continues.

No, I actually think we will look more like Mexico: gated communities, graffiti on walls, abandoned factories and buildings, old cars on the streets, a real have and have not world.

I was just over there.

One has a different mind set when someone is packin'. I remember an incident in Soho, London. I was sitting at an outdoor cafe with2 collegues late in the evening. A customer got into an agrument with the owner. After shouting, obsenities and eventually food throwing, my collegues and I hit the ground. I thought bullets were going to fly. After the incident, the person next at the next table said to me "you guys are yanks". I acknowledged that if this was Chicago, someone would have been shot.

Knowing the enviroment, you know the limits. It's different in each country.

Rick: what would happen in China? I have been there... Can you do what can be done in the USA or the UK? I don't think so.

Jim, how many people has Rick shot when he got into an argument? When someone dinged his 911, did he shoot them?

The stats show that the people who have a chl are more law abiding (factor of 5) and understand the laws concerning use of a firearm better than the police. Your statements are speculative at best, and are probably made up by some anti-gunner group. They simply are what happens in Hollywood, not real life. The "Wild West" wasn't even the wild west.

The USA will never tolerate UK levels and styles of social support/aid. So yes, we will look more like Mexico, and the energy exports of Canada will make them the UAE of North America.

Everyone NPR interviewed in London this Am sounded just like Ali G. Booyah!!!

10 yr. olds did that? Are you joking? I thought we had a lot of bad parents in the US. You have 10 yr. olds who do stuff like that?

I've never seen riots like this spread to residential areas in the US. But rest assured, private homes would be well defended in the US by armed homeowners and they'd not be asking to check ID's or age before shooting rioters, looters, marauders, etc.

The footage I've seen did not show 10 year olds.

it cracks me up. We take better care of our homeless here in the USA than they do in the UK.

I don't know what would happen there. Depends on whether the unrest were in a major city or in the countryside. In the countryside, the police would probably be outmanned by farmers with pitchforks and they'd run away. In the cities the cops would have unlimited manpower, backed by the army. If the riots got to the point of threatening the regime, I don't doubt they'd shoot people. But honestly, I don't care if someone is armed or not. If you're destroying property, hurling rocks and bottles at people and setting fires, I have no problem with your getting shot. Doesn't matter what country it's in. Rest assured, in China they'd be going after the instigators once it was all over and they'd be disappeared and everyone would know about it. Add cell phones and the Internet into the mix and I don't know how bad it would get before the state cracked down. Rubber bullets and water cannons only deter the amateurs.

Watch some different footage.. they are there... and in some cases have been arrested.

Right...

It really strains your credibility to remotely try to pin any of this on 10 yr. olds. Maybe they have arrested a few. But kids, who aren't even old enough to be pissed off about economic or political conditions do not start riots and burn down buildings. Does not happen. No, I wouldn't shoot a 10 yr. old. I'd just wring his neck and drag him by his ear lobe back to his parents' house.

Believe me, the last thing the British people want is firearms--they look on the US obsession with guns with abhorrence.
I left England 38 years ago because it was a dysfunctional society-totally class based with merit having no say. It has improved somewhat since then in terms of opportunities but the huge number of immigrants--550,000 last year alone--means that the people at the bottom of the pile feel they are sinking lower. And when you have nothing to lose the law means very little.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1312902412.jpg
LOL, the PC police are going to be very upset with that author ;)

Do you disagree? Why?

I saw their little town of shacks down by the river in Bristol. They were eating some kind of animal they had killed earlier that day.

I agree. And guns wouldn't make things better here for a few reasons. First among them being that in the UK you'd go to prison for using a weapon in your own defense. Second is that no one really cares when it's just other people's businesses or cars or gov't. buildings getting trashed. Anyone can watch that on tv and not even get upset about it unless it happens to be your business or your car in flames. In the US you can use a gun to defend your home or business and people do it sometimes. Works here. Wouldn't work there.

The rot-ney king riots were speading, but stopped far from the orange curtain border. They knew better than to go up against a bunch of pizzed off well armed folks who don't put up with that kind of crap.

If the good guys are armed, the criminals won't like the odds.
But then again, some societies are more comfortable being victims rather than victors.

Rick.. your opinion is irrelevant.. 10-11 year olds have been arrested here after being cuaght with looted goods on the street. They do not start the riots.. no absolutely correct but they are 'rioting' and looting....whether you like it/ or think it does not happen matters not.

Now should they be out doing this.. no absolutely not and it would be good to think you could do as you suggest.. in this case you might recieve a petrol bomb or two as reward...or an earful from the parents.

That may indeed be the case...and I am sure I could cherry pick the examples of homeless I saw in 5 years of living in DC.. and base my opinion on that.. or not as the case may be....

But it might not be great to make a sweeping generalisation...

I'm sorry to have offended you. I saw the homeless being screamed at by people saying stuff like I'm tired of paying for you so bugger off and what not. The ones I spoke with who were eating a duck, (I think) made me wonder if there were soup
kitchens. I'm terribly sorry to generalize and this thread isn't about homeless people I'm afraid.

The British put up huge immigrant families in very expensive apartments in nice parts of London, because that is where those people want to live. Its really quite amazing.

This is what I was told and the forgotten ones are truly forgotten. At least this is what I was told.

Correct.. but its not that 'they' want to live there....each local authority here has an obligation to provide homes for those who 'need thwm' in their own borough.

Do you really think the City of London or of Westminister really want to own residential property in their borough in order to house people? Givne the choice they would not and those unable to afford to live in those areas would have to move out.. far out of London, passing the porblem to other local government bodies...who may have far less income....and hence ability to provide for these people who would then be homeless and cause far great problems...a vicious circle that was started many generations ago...

Some of you seem to be ignoring the point that if the home owners had guns the rioters would have guns too...

A similar situation occured in Vancouver recently, as I am sure you know. The cause there was
certainly different to England-most of the Vancouver rioters were not the poor and uneducated. Thrill seeking? Some were I think. "Social media" seems to play into it and provide a means of gathering a large group of like minded people in one place quickly-certainly that was the case in Vancouver.
No guns appeared in Vancouver either I am happy to say.

England may finally be at a point that has been brewing for many, many years.

Red,

I'm not an anti-gun guy. My thoughts are my thoughts. I have been to China and it probably the safest place I have ever felt in the world. No one pan handled me, I had no fear walking down alleys in Shanghai or Nanchang, no matter what the hour was. Why? It is a police state: cameras everywhere and no guns. Rick, you are right, those in the city would disappear. This is the point I was making: you would diappear. You might think twice about doing something.

I walked thru the street on Soho that night, not the best neighborhood. Not that I'm looking to get harmed, Maybe it was false security on my part, but the absence of guns influenced my decision.

The USA is the most heavily armed country in the world. Laws are for the law abiding. They don't apply to those who illegally obtain, own or use firearms. We probably don't enforce the laws we have and I'm certainly not advocating for more gun control.

I don't buy the argument guns make me safer. I don't beleive they would change the outcome of the UK riots. There is underlying rage that has yet to be expressed.


One more thought: During the roits in the late 60's and 70's, communities that were destroyed were poor. The have nots preyed on the have nots. I can only speak to areas in Detroit and Chicago, the burned out areas remained leveled for years. Minority shop owners moved, nothing got rebuilt and large retailers refuse to build there.

Not offended, however the America I lived in was no nirvana, despite living in one of the more affluent and genteel parts, it was, like here a patch work of the sublime, the ridiculous and the catastrophic in equal measure. The fact I chose to return to the UK in order to live and work was a reflection of the elements that I deemed more important than the others. That is all I know and I know I know very little beyond.

Soup kitchens, night and day shelters all exist and are very welcome.... some however chose not to use them...

Jim, you don't carry a firearm because you know you're going to need one. If you go someplace where you KNEW you were going to need one, you wouldn't go. You carry a firearm "just in case", like a fire extinguisher.

But if you review the video I posted, you will find that case, like many others, that criminals are generally cowards. If they think they will be hurt or shot, they will avoid the situation. They want easy prey, not someone who will fight back. And certainly not someone with a chance.

You may not think you are anti-gun, but your responses are those learned from the anti-gunners. To steal a part of a phrase: "the trouble is that you know so much that isn’t true..."

You haven't been panhandled in China? Where the hell did you go? I've been stalked by legless kids on creeper boards. I've had panhandlers gather around and bang on the window next to my table while dining indoors. China is only a police state in the political sense. Mess with the gov't. and you get the horns. Mess with anyone else and they turn a blind eye. As a white guy, I have it a little better than most, since the cops there take crimes against foreigners pretty seriously. But rest assured, there are a LOT of people in China who have zero fear of the gov't. and they have some serious and violent crime there. They still have highwaymen there! Yes, really. They'll drop a bunch of boulders or a large tree across a major road and either rob you when you stop or just demand outrages tolls to move the barriers. It ain't a police state at all like you're thinking. And they have riots there all the time, mostly in the countryside, like thousands per year.

Red, I didn't know I sound like an anti-guy guy, not intentional I assure you. I find you comments essentially true.