Why do we act this way and then are shocked when others cheat us? Goes around comes around... Someone has to start the ball rolling. You don't have to be a sucker but, why not be an example of honesty? Many Pelicans believe in Karma (technically a PARF topic). Well, if you do the right thing when others don't you are going to get good Karma. I prefer to quote a different book that says the same thing: "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap".

+1000 Nostatic. Its all about how you feel about yourself and if you are raising or lowering the class average.

Bob is correct...the distilled issue is you shook hands, made a deal but then had second thoughts, noodled about money and the way you thought you were treated.

And changed your mind.

Sorry, but you were an Air Force doc, right, a military officer?: You should know better without a pause.

I don't really view it as a huge problem, either in general or in ND's situation here.

It's a large purchase, involving a product that is in a highly competitive market.

People are free to do whatever they want. If they want to haggle, they can haggle. If they don't, the sticker price is right there. If a buyer believes his salesguy or dealership is sleezy, there's lots of other dealerships in the country he can go to.

If a mfr or dealership believes "no haggle pricing" is the best way to go, they are free to do that.

A deal is reached when a deal is reached, i.e., when the contract is signed.

Sales are sales, whether it's a car, a house, or anything. I was in a Best Buy yesterday to pick up a computer, and it's the same old stuff. Salespeople talking out of their azz, trying to pile on a bunch of super expensive "service plans" and other hard and soft items you don't want or need, etc. It's all the same game.

Reality is there is quite a bit of gamemanship in the auto industry. This establishs the playing field. To make it a question of personnal integrity is naive. It is more about coping in an uncertain enviroment with information that is less than 100% trustworthy.

Gamesmanship: So because some people lie on PP its OK for someone to lie and cheat you about the car or parts they are selling you?

Define 'best deal'......trick question, you can't.

So, I try to represent a FAIR VALUE and I'm very up-front about my pricing. I know the marketplace well enough to know where most of my competition will come in. If I get beat on price it's not by much. I'm not worried about it.

Believe it or not, most people DO understand value versus price. Those who repeatedly demonstrate that they do not are quite welcome to take their business elsewhere, as I probably don't want them as a long-term customer.

The moment the OP started re-negotiating, I would have politely thanked him for the opportunity to earn his business, apologized for not meeting his expectation, shook his hand, and walked him to the door.

He would follow the forum rules and keep the religious posts in PARF.

Is it right.... no. Sad and despicable ....yes. Given the history of the board and to assume they wouldn't is naive.

It's a free country, as they say. Dog eat dog. Eye for an eye.

That doesn't mean things shouldn't change.

If enough consumers 'voted with their checkbook', they would put the sleazy dealers out of business and the 'good' ones that treated their customers ethically would remain. Eventually, the industry would change.

So participating in the BS, then b!tching about the BS..... you're perpetuating the BS. Don't participate. Act ethically and choose to do business with those that act ethically.

Unfortunately, $400 is enough for some to forget ethics.

Of course. Let the buyer beware. That said, shouldn't we encourage one another to not cheat? There was a time when people were ashamed to lie. Now, we have people who are proud of it. It is what it is but, I refuse to lower myself to their level.

Eric, I would interpret this answer as no, but you will give a competitive deal. I understand the concept of value. Example (exaggerated for clarity); bought the car at the local dealership because of its support of the local community library.

Kaisen, I appreciate your viewpoint here, it sounds like you are at least in some way connected to the car industry.

I understand your point about ethics and trying to change the paradigm.

Here is my question, was it unethical for the dealership to quote me $27700 over the phone and then not be able to deliver that price when I arrived? Let me be clear, they absolutely could not deliver that price no matter which package of incentives I took. Their lowest "cash price" was $28000. So, I would say it was unethical to throw a price out there that was $300 less than their lowest possible deal just to "get me in the dealership". By the way, the sales manager said those words, verbatim. Then he tried to defend it by saying that is just "how the car dealer business works".

I guess the "ethical" thing for me to do would have been to walk out of the dealership right then and there. However, would I have had any greater chance of dealing with an ethical dealership down the road? I would say no. This was my second dealership to go to, the first tried to sell me a base model car with aftermarket leather (to try and meet my needs and sell the car they had on their lot) for $3000 OVER what the sticker price on the factory installed leather car was. On top of that they offered me $10,000 in trade for my 2006 BMW that KBB says is worth $16300. I did walk out of that dealership after the sales manager tried to tell me my car wasn't worth more than $10k and his car was worth $36k all day long. I took it to CarMax 30 minutes later and was offered $16k on the spot for my BMW.

Dealer A (the bait and switch dealer) offered me $14500 for my car (better than the idiots I dealt with the day before) but still no where near what I could get simply by walking into CarMax. I even told them I had a $16k offer from CarMax and it didn't matter. The sales manager at Bait and Switch Mazda then proceeded to tell me this was a "zero profit" deal for him already at $28500. BS. Does he think I'm stupid? I know about holdback. I know there are factory to dealer incentives to sell cars. I know that Mazda has a $1000 factory to dealer incentive on 2011 CX-9s RIGHT NOW according to multiple sources on the internet. That doesn't even take into account any incentives that aren't published.

So, Bait and Switch Mazda was likely standing to make something around Invoice is $28700, I paid $28500. They get AT LEAST $1500 from Mazda in incentives plus the 1% holdback which is based on MSRP ($310 holdback). So their "no profit" deal was likely going to profit them about $1600.

Basically, Bait and Switch Mazda dealt with me with lies from the start and lies at the end. So, why again should I be the one to step up and be "ethical" with them over a verbal agreement which was not signed and they had taken no action on? People keep saying the dollar amount doesn't matter. I say it does. I was willing to eat $100 or $200 difference. I would absolutely think it would be silly to break a verbal agreement with a dealer over $50. This was $400 PLUS another $500 on my trade in. So for nearly $1000?? I think most people on this board would have broken that deal for $1000.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If you want to change the way transactions occur at car dealerships, start by telling the dealers to quit trying to rake their customers over the coals.

Then don't shake the hand.

Jesus, Nathan, have this conversation before you look someone in the eye and commit.

You didn't do your homework.

The things people say about car dealerships and salesmen being douchebags are OUTRAGEOUS!

If ANY of those nasty things that people say were true, car dealerships and salesmen would have a BAD REPUTATION.

Sheesh :rolleyes:

You refusing to lower yourself to that level does not change the facts of the matter. I appreciate you saying "I refuse to do business" because of the way "they do business" but to think your individual values or ethics will change the few bad apples, while noble, I think it is overreaching in expectation.

I just purchased a new car and turned in a leased car. The dealer who I turned in the leased car to did not inform me that I left money on the table turning the car in. The dealer I purchased the new car from did not volunteer the "best available deal" until I shopped his price. All people involved are undoubtedly good church going people. I harbor no ill will because to me it is part of the environment and inherent gamesmanship of the industry.

Or, at least, have your fingers crossed behind your back when you do it!

Why was this thread started if you feel so strongly about being in the right?

I started the thread to get honest opinions. I guess I have gotten that. I did not expect such a lashing from a vocal minority. If I had set up a poll I bet it would be 90% "no" and 10% "yes". To me, it seems like the "yes" people are acting like I left some woman standing at the altar or stole money from a bank, that's all.

I guess you can take your personal code of ethics as far as you want, do you ever return an item you bought from a store because you found the same thing cheaper somewhere else? Does that constitute a binding contract? I would say it does because in that situation you actually PAID something for the item and the seller now has to refund you that money. Like I said, to me this is on a continuum. Some people here (Seahawk, artplumber, etc) feel like they would have just given up the $1000 and chalked it up to their own mistake for shaking on a deal that wasn't the best they could get. Most of the others on the thread are ranging in opinions from "nah, no biggie" to "hooray for you, screw em!!"

Like I said, everyone can take their ethical code to whatever level they desire. I think that a large portion of society would have broken the deal over $100 or $200 while I was willing to lose that money and keep the deal intact. Once it got to $400 plus more money for my trade, that's where I drew the line. I suspect even Seahawk would have a point where he would have to break the deal. Maybe it's $1000, or $5000, or $50,000 but the breaking point is there somewhere.

Oh, the other reason for starting the thread was because I was bored sitting in the finance office of the dealer I bought the car from...

funniest comment yet

Here is the deal...I would have done my f'ing homework.

That is difference.

You clearly have a price for you, what you stand for. I don't. Don't drag me into your moral dilemma...and I don't care if it's 99% for your weakness versus what I believe.

Stop being lame.