you've noticed that the natives become restless when you ask them to read something

if you can point them to a link they can listen to that supports their preconceived notions against anything new, they will love you

:rolleyes: BFF's

Have at it cowboy. I'm a big boy, I can take it. Speaking of context I believe we were discussing how the Volt is in part thanks to the US government that purchased a bankrupt GM (because they built crappy cars) then created tax breaks to help sell the car because it makes little economic sense. I'm not sure where that retort was, maybe I missed it in the effing thread context?

I find it rather ironic that a non-Porsche enthusiast and car dealer that spends his time trolling for GM and looking for car location customers is speaking of "calling people out". Considering how you actively seek out customers on this site, are you a paid sponsor of Pelican Parts? Lets face it, "You know by now what I do. If you're interested, contact me." isn't in your signature line because you're some sort of secret agent.

Is the Chevy Volt a sales flop?
General Motors has repeatedly claimed a sales target for 2011 of 10,000 units for the plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt sedan. But, nine months into the year, they've only shipped 3,895 off the lot. In fact, in September sales numbers, released an hour ago, GM sold only 723 Volts. Will GM fail to meet its own sales predictions?
To be fair, GM has claimed that sales would falter during the summer because of a pre-planned shutdown of the automaker's Hamtramck assembly plant. But, it was thought by most analysts that GM would have already swallowed that hiccup and by September we'd see higher sales. Despite more than doubling last months sales, we somehow don't think 723 units sold this past month is what one would consider massive sales momentum — especially given this summer's anemic numbers. And that's not to say there aren't any Volts on dealer lots. Cars.com shows over 2,600 units available in a nation-wide search of new vehicle listings.

To give you an idea of how few vehicles that is, here are just a few of the GM vehicles that sold better than the Chevy Volt this month:

Cadillac Escalade - 1,527
Chevrolet Colorado Pickup - 2,171
Chevrolet Avalanche - 1,861
Chevrolet Suburban - 5,246
Buick Lucerne - 1,068

That last car, the Buick Lucerne, is even more ironic considering it's made on the very same assembly line as the Chevy Volt — yet the Buick-for-blue-hairs still managed to sell almost 50% more units this past month.

Compare those sales with the vehicle most pundits position as a direct competitor — the Nissan Leaf all-electric car. Nissan sold 1,362 Leafs during the month of August and 1,031 during the month of September. Year to date, they've sold 7,199 — twice the number of Volts GM has shipped off dealer lots.

GM has a steep hill to climb if they plan on making their claim of 10,000 units sold. By our count it means they'll have to sell over 2,000 Volts during each of the remaining three months of 2011. We'll see if they can make it — or if the Volt ends up being a flop for GM in its first year of sales.

So what does all this hand-wringing mean? Who knows. It could mean there's very little desire for such weird, new technology. Or it could just mean GM's still working the kinks out of the supply chain. All we know is — sometimes it's best not to put hard targets to leap over unless you're sure you can clear 'em. Because tripping and falling always hurts...... ok , carry on...

I am increasingly sorry that my contractual agreement disallows me from discussion of these cars with you all. I really am.

Sounds a little "Brokeback Mountain", not that there's anything wrong with that. You can live your private life however you'd like.

That's why I asked you to re-read the thread. Because bankruptcy or bail-out wasn't brought up. Once. By anyone. Maybe YOU were discussing it, or misunderstood..... the rest of us were talking about the US Government providing grants and incentives to advance hydrogen technologies. THAT money.

Really? The US Government created tax breaks to help sell the Volt? I disagree. The tax breaks were in place LONG before the Volt came to market. And several years before the GM bail-out. And last I checked, GM wasn't the only one that benefitted from the tax breaks. I do believe that Toyota has sold more cars that have qualified for alt-fuel/hybrid/EV tax breaks than any other manufacturer. More units, more dollars. And that's okay with me. It's not about any specific manufacturer.

And that was my point here. I didn't bring up GM to say they were better. I brought it up in defense of Tesla. However, Tesla doesn't have a ton of recent articles journaling the range claim of its product, but there are lots of them on the Volt EV. The Volt has met and/or exceeded its as-delivered range-claim in real-world driving conditions. Some will see less, some will see more. Just like your own gas tank. Someone said the Veyron has a 325 mile range under ideal conditions, but it's only around 60 miles at full throttle. Drive your Volt (or Tesla, or Leaf, or....) like a race car and I'm sure you won't achieve the manufacturer's stated range.

So here's where it gets personal, eh? I've personally owned more Porsches than you, but that doesn't make me more or less an enthusiast. I can (and do) appreciate other brands too. You like whatever you own at the time. You used to defend BMW til death do you part, now you're pretty vocal against them. That's how it goes, you know. For me too. No manufacturer is absolved from a swing and a miss, nor do they deserve blind praise. Porsche and GM included. Things change.

I don't think I actively seek out customers here. They contact me. I've even helped you Matt, which is ironic. I get a few PMs a week here, and sell maybe 3 vehicles a year to Pelicans. In other words, I help about 50 Pelicans for every one that chooses to buy a car through me. Great business model, huh? But I enjoy helping Pelicans, so I'm happy to give free advice and data. I'm lucky enough to love what I do. I'm going to remove my signature though.

I've long been accused of being a shill for GM. Fair enough. I suppose when idiots on the Corvette or LS Tech forums start talking trash about Porsche and their owners I'm known as a Porsche apologist. Lately, it's all about politics. People who say they would avoid a good product because of their political beliefs are morons in my book, but then I'm apolitical.

In my opinion, PPOT has degenerated into PARF lite where the PARF participants come to carry over their hatred and ideology, albeit thinly veiled. It's no fun anymore. It's not about bringing the best of the brain trust together for the benefit of all. It now seems to be about bashing others who don't see the world like you do. I'm saddened by the spillover. It used to be a great place to 'hang out' with fellow enthusiasts.

Matt, you used to post here several times a day. Now, not so much. But I've noticed that you're not as friendly -- in general -- as you once were. Whatever the change, I hope things are well.

Starting out your reply by calling me gay then commenting that I made it personal is a sad irony, isn't it? Your e-toughguy posting was the catalyst for my response, prior to that I felt that this was respectful conversation. I have a lot of respect for a number of Pelicans and have made every effort to meet them as I travel, even though we may not always agree the ability to have a polite debate is what differentiates this site from most others. There are also members of this site that are so entrenched in their beliefs or vested interests that conversation with them are an exercise in futility, all of whom are best ignored. With that in mind I'm done with this conversation, which I'm sure you will construe as a victory on your part.

No, not really. It's making light of things with humor.

I haven't read this entire thread, (lack of interest), but I'm amazed that a discussion of electric cars could get so nasty and personal. This board is slipping, with several "PARFY" thread titles and/or threads quickly devolving into PARF-land. Really disappointing.

Autosport got a ride in one of the "beta" cars, and a tour of the interior... Pretty cool use of technology on the interior of the car... risky, but cool:

First Ride: 2012 Tesla Model S Beta — Autoblog Canada

Sorry, to me it just screams "let's plaster an ipad right in the middle of the dash". You get of hint of it in the autoblog photos, but I've got to think glare and eyestrain are going to be big issues when driving in real world scenarios (both night and day).
Lately it seems that only a handful of automakers are successfully integrating technology into the cabin. In my opinion, after looking at the S, Tesla is not one of them.

But what I really want to know is....why aren't they further along in the factory? Aren't they supposed to be starting deliveries in 2012? Where's all the tooling? Wasn't a portion of the 2009 loan ($100M) devoted to plant development?
I wish them (and Fisker) well but I hope this project doesn't go down the road of DMC...or Solyndra.

Tesla has a pretty good business plan. They are pushing the boundaries of technology and spending a lot of time patenting it. They are already selling IP to other companies. IP is basically 100% profit margin once R&D and patent prosecution and defense costs are amortized. Musk wants Tesla to be a legitimate automotive maker but if they end up as a for-profit research and design firm (like Porsche Design, Magneti Marelli, etc.) that's not bad either.

The Tesla S is a wonderful commuter and weekend family car. It is not meant for people that can only afford one car and need an all-in-one. It's as good as the battery technology allows for now but it will get better. One of the reasons is because Tesla is pushing battery tech forward.

In three years since new I've not driven my BMW 335i coupe more than maybe 200 miles in one day. We have different cars for road trips. I can see owning one although I'll probably end up with the new Audi A7 just because I really like that car.

I wish there was no government bailouts or loan guarantees for any of these guys, but as others have pointed out they ALL take them. Even more I wish that there was no "tax credit". But I blame the gov. for this, not Tesla. What are they supposed to do, turn it down? In any case I'm going to support an American company that does R&D and manufacturing in the USA.

Disclaimer, I have a financial interest in Tesla.

News from a year ago but when this 261 MPG VW becomes a reality, I'm in.

261 MPG Volkswagen XL1 Production Confirmed, Debuts Geneva

Low weight--only 1,752 lbs--means only a small engine and electric motor is needed to deliver respectable performance. Much of the car is constructed from carbon fiber, aluminum and titanium.

VW says the car will do 261 mpg, though the real figure will be lower than that should it ever be tested under EPA guidelines. Even so, it'll still use comfortably less fuel than any vehicle currently on sale.

A diesel engine of only 0.8 liters and 2 cylinders capacity produces 47 horsepower, with a further 27 horses delivered by the electric motor. Power reache the wheels via a 7-speed dual-clutch gearbox.

Those figures sound miniscule by modern standards, but the XL1 should reach 62 mph in12.7 seconds. Top speed is 98 mph.

Operating alone, the small battery can deliver up to 31 miles of range, and can be charged via plug or regenerative effect.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1389396900.jpg

BMW i3 looks pretty cool to me. Then again, I drive a Prius.

Sounds like a marvel of engineering. And it sports 47 HP's. That is much more than my first car, a 1956 VW, with only 30 HP. And hat car took me all over Germany, over "Gross Glockner Pass" to Italy, Yugoslavia, and Greece!

I will admit I haven't read every response. But I will tell you: Tesla bought the NUMMI plant from GM/Toyota. They got the equipment for pennies on the dollar. They have the ability to produce beyond what they project, the plant was state of the art in terms of auto plants. They have a plan and money to invest in making a vehicle with a comparative range of gas vehicles and they will get there. There are companies like GM and Toyota that are interested in their technology.

They will win whether they sucked or not...............because whatever they create, advance technology or improved a process - it trickles down to those who take advantage of it. That is how it works, - history tells us that. The cynics always appear on the eve of experiments/discoveries - We need to encourage the flow of creativity.

Very cool. Perfect for people with long driving commutes. I'm glad to finally see a diesel hybrid.

BMW Suffers Big Setback Against Tesla in California - TheStreet

Yeah, I was all over the VW when I first saw/read about it... however when I did more research on this car the price is crazy high... I'm guessing it is just a flagship car, but we can hope some of this tech will trickle down to us peons.

Wow... What a stupid outcome. Proof positive that bureaucratic regulation just stifles any innovation.