Took the intro flight today in a 172. I'm going to go ahead and get the medical taken care of in December and then start in February when I get back from vacation. I can hit it hard then. How often would you guys suggest? 2-3 times a week, more, less? Hour or two a day?

Can you buy a OK plane for $30k to $40k? A four seater.

DC,

I would hold off on the medical unless you are concerned about possible issues that would keep you from getting a medical. If this is the case, DO NOT get the medical as you can fly "light sport" airplanes without a medical, but only if your medical has never been denied.

If all is well then, you only need a medical right before you solo, and getting it now wastes several months of it. Granted, a 3rd class is good I believe for 3 years (its been a while since I have had one) so its not a big deal but why waste money.

Just looked on Barnstormers (Airplanes & Aircraft Parts For Sale - Free Classified Ads - Ultralights to Airliners - Used Aircraft and Helicopter Sales and Classifieds including Cessna, Beechcraft, Piper, de Havilland, Boeing, Airbus and Lockheed planes) and there are 10 pages of C-172's for sale. Prices ran from $27k to higher than you want to spend. Stay away from a C-175. Assume that here are the same number of Pipers on there as well. If you need help, email.

Class 3 is good for 2 years, 5 if you are under 40.

Thanks Dave. Been so long since I had one of those (I have to have a first class) that I was not sure...

I don't think there are any 4-seat LSA planes.

Regarding prices (if you consider a 172 to be a 4 seater) yes you can get a good, older model one between $30k and $40k.

In general, I advise that you stick with the1968 or newer 4-cylinder Lycoming powered 172-i thru 172-m and not consider the older 6 cylinder Conti powered ones. This is personal preference, though, based on the costs of overhauls and the TBO times. Also, stay away from any N model unless the engine has been changed or is very low time. The O-320-H2AD was known for having problems, and is usually more expensive to overhaul.

You can get a well-setup PA-28 for 30-40k ;)

Ive been looking at the link posted above and it seams that the Cherokee 140-160's fall in this range. I don't know anything about them thou. How do these compare with the 172's?

Normy steps into the conversation. 2100 hours of dual given at FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida. I was the Assistant Chief Pilot at that school for a while.

-What I would tell you, if you are interested in learning to fly, is to do it RIGHT. I tell people interested in my Porsche to do the same thing- do it RIGHT. Buy the most expensive car you can afford, and then do good maintenance.

Flying is the same thing. Many small FBO's and flight schools operate on shoestring budgets these days. They stave off maintenance if they can to cut costs. After I graduated from Embry-Riddle, I tried to find a job for a month and regularly flew this Piper Cherokee from an FBO in Sebastian, Florida. First time I did the preflight, the oil was dirty and LOW. I had to ask the man that ran the place to add a quart of oil. And then on the climbout to 3000 feet, the oil temp went right to the redline! Believe me, I was eying that beach! I kept it within gliding distance of the airport from then on. It was $26 per hour wet in 1989, and I needed to keep my skills up for interview flights. I only had 210 hours....

-Go to a decent, well-known and brand name flight school to do your training. They have the coin to do decent maintenance, so you won't be doing engine out demonstrations FOR REAL!

Another person posted that a young flight instructor is a bad idea; At a big school, that doesn't matter as much. At a small school, it sure as hell does! Big flight schools have lots of kids with 747 cockpit windows in their eyes, but they are all the same. Small places have some guys that are very good and some that are very BAD. The smaller the place, the more lucky you have to be with regard to instructors. This is true at large airlines such as the one that I fly for today.

DO NOT BE AFRAID to fire a flight instructor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot emphasize this enough. A good CFI works with you. He will tell you when you are wrong. He will tell you when you are correct. He KNOWS TO SHUT THE HELL UP when you are trying to do a stall, a steep turn, or another maneuver!

-A GOOD flight instructor ONLY yells at a student when he has done something dangerous and stupid! This last is a big problem in the industry. Too many fools sit down next to a student in a plane and then cross their arms and knit their brows as soon as the prop starts turning.

"WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT?" But they don't give you any corrective actions. I had an instructor like that through most of my instrument training, and I eventually fired him. I asked for another instructor, and he was dumbfounded! One day, at the start of my training with him, he asked me which car wax I used, because my '85 Scirocco was gleaming in the parking lot. I went down the whole story of how I clean my cars, which I still do to this day.

After I fired him, when he asked me why I had a problem with him, I told him that I didn't yell at him when he asked that question. Why does he feel the need to yell at me now? He still didn't get it. He flies for US Airways Express to this day, and has a HORRID reputation there! I jumpseated on them a few years ago and mentioned his name to the crew and both of them turned around in the seat and gave me a bad look!

-THERE is NO need for that sort of personality in aviation. But people like this guy are ALL OVER THE PLACE!


These are the sorts of things you need to AVOID if you are going to join the legion of aviators. The main thing I want you to take away from my post right here and right now is that

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW YOUR TRAINING GOES, not your instructor. Don't let him overcharge you for briefing time. Don't let him NOT do any briefing with you before and after a flight! Don't let him forget items on the syllabus, so that you can find out about them on the checkride. Don't let the engine overheat on your plane- if it does, TURN around and find another flight school. Don't let some a55hole sit there and scream at you....while you are paying him! TURN around and put said a55hole on the GROUND where he belongs!

Good luck. I hope I haven't scared you off, but aviation is like Porsche-dom: It is either heaven or a pit of snakes. If you are being paid, it is usually BOTH.

N!

This very good advice. Middle age CFI's or ex military IP's are are best if you can find them. Women can be excellent CFI'S . Cessna 172's are hard to beat as far as value and utility. Have fun,take your time enjoy the experance fly 2-3 times a week. Find a good ground school.,don't let the written spook you.

I have flown both 172's and Cherokee 140's..... Both are easy to fly although they both feel like a bus at the controls compared to my little 4 seat Piper Pacer. I would generally prefer the 172 over a Cherokee "140" for my type of flying which typically involves short grass runways. I have a 2500' grass strip at home and I would think twice about trying to fly a Cherokee "140" off of it with 4 large people aboard on a hot summer day..... No problem with a 172.

That said, my wife's boss is thinking of selling his Cherokee 140 if you are interested. I don't know what he is asking, but it has a low time engine with great compression and somewhat recent paint. I have done the last several annual inspections on it. My guess is that he would want somewhere between 30k and 40k for it.

CFI/CFII/MEI and former 135 cargo rat on frequency...

Many good points made above. I will definitely say "shop around". One of my big pet peeves is flight schools who either state or strongly imply (through their pricing quotes) that you can have your Private Pilot certificate in 40 hours. This is sometimes true but most often not. National average when I was teaching was in the 65-ish hour range done under part 61 (general flight schools with flexible/open/student-tailored programs), slightly less under part 141 (academy-type schools with FAA-approved syllabi that are followed to the letter).

Definitely do meet with the guy who will be YOUR personal CFI - not a sales guy. You are making a considerable investment of your time and money and will be spending a fair amount of close-quarters time with this person. Personality clashes will inevitably happen, but if you can find someone you're comfortable with and who your personality meshes well with, such conflicts will be minimized and you'll be able to make the most of your seat time and focus on the training content.

SCHEDULE 2-3 times a week minimum. Plan on losing at least 1 scheduled lesson a week due to weather, mechanical issues, plane unavailability or whatever. Those blocks of time should be used for ground instruction and to bring your questions to your instructor so the time isn't wasted and you get something out of it when you're already mentally in the frame of mind to learn/talk shop.

The advice about a smaller airport is very good. I did most of my instruction out of KSMO and while it is an excellent venue to prepare SoCal pilots for the busy/complex airspace environment of that particular area of the world, most places aren't like that and there's no need to be tying up $100+ an hour Hobbs time on the ground waiting for the six guys in the pattern to get it on the ground so you can depart. Smaller, less busy airports do have their advantages, but insist that you get plenty of exposure to towered airport operations and radio time with both Flight Service and Approach (VFR flight following) so you're comfortable with operations at busier/controlled environments - INCLUDING GROUND OPERATIONS! I used to take students down to KLGB and have them taxi around that confusing mess of an airport so they got used to looking at a ground layout chart, asking for help if they needed it, reading back hold short clearances, etc. I don't want my students involved in any incursions and you sure as hell don't want to be involved in any either - make sure you're diligent on the ground just as much (more so) than in the air - towered and non-towered airports alike.

Learn/focus on the basics. Many new VFR airplanes have all kinds of fancy-schmancy glass cockpit displays and GPS navigation systems and other bells and whistles. Don't waste your time on them in your primary training. Learn to "fly the numbers" - airspeeds, power settings, etc. Learn visual references and don't try to become an Instrument Rated pilot - that will come in time if you want it. You can learn about the fancy GPS stuff after you have your ticket with a few hours of post-PPL dual instruction.

As said above, don't tolerate an instructor who either treats you as "incidental" to his/her primary goal of getting hired with a regional or who verbally/mentally abuses you. There are MANY motivational tools available to an instructor to get a student to understand something; yelling/losing ones cool is a big red flag to me - and a sign of a lazy individual unwilling to analyze the problem and try a multitude of different approaches at helping the student to "get it".

Finally, get the FAA Practical Test Standards (available at any pilot shop or online) and understand what exactly you'll be expected to know/perform on the checkride. This will help alleviate anxiety. By the time you get there you'll have performed each maneuver to well better than standards, many times.

For the written prep I strongly recommend the Jeppesen hardcover book (about $80) and the Gleim test prep books (about $25). YMMV, different people get better results with videos, other publications, etc. There are about a zillion different sources of the same information out there - you'll end up finding at least one that works for you, but those have always yielded good results in my experience.

Finally, ENJOY IT! You should get to the end of each lesson happy, thrilled and (yes) a bit exhausted, but with a glow of satisfaction that comes from having mastered something that prior to the lesson, you couldn't do. If you're not, you are (or your instructor more likely is) doing something wrong. You should never walk away with a sense of "what a waste" or "that sucked". Even a bad incident like having to declare an emergency or make a forced landing should leave you with a sense of satisfaction because you did it correctly and well.

Good luck. Blue side up. ;)

One thing, Tim mentions a friend with a Cherokee 140. Nice plain airplane that you can fly for years while learning to fly but what concerns me is that 140 hp engine is not the strongest in the world.

Pls give one a try before buying. Would love to see a 160 or even a 180 but then the price is going to be higher.

Also Jeff mentioned several flying books. Try looking on Amazon and finding a used copy of the book. The new version of the Private Pilot Manual was $55 while there were 61 copies of the same book but used selling for $8 up. About the same situation with the Gleim.

'68 Cherokee-180D

No affiliation just saw it this morning.

I did all my primary training in the PA28-161. Great airplane IMHO. It was a little odd for me getting used to the high-wing 172 but it is also a great airplane in its own right. The debate of "what's the best training aircraft" is like "what's the best oil for a 911"? It totally depends on you, your perceptions, your goals, etc. Some will like a low wing, some prefer a high wing. The short answer is "whatever you're comfortable with".

If I could find a good IFR-capable Cherokee 180, Arrow (PA28R-200), a Cherokee Six (PA32) or Lance (retractable gear version) without issues for under $30k I'd buy it tomorrow. I love the whole Piper line (with the possible exception of the Traumahawk, although even those never treated me poorly). Rock-solid stable platforms. YMMV. Try a few different ones on before committing to training in a particular make/model.

Just saw that '68. Not a bad deal from the sound of it...

Jeff,

I would not recommend the Arrow or Lance for one reason. For a beginning student the insurance would be sky high on any retractable landing gear. As well his costs for annual and so on would be far higher than a stiff leg airplane. As well a Cherokee Six is a wonderful "truck in the sky" but far more than he needs as a beginning student.

A Cherokee 160 or 180 would work fine in the low wing market.

Agreed, I meant for me. ;)

I stopped at another flight school today and pretty much think it is where I will go. I talked with the owner for awhile, he has been there since 68 and also still instructs. He said his instructors are basically retired guys now teaching. He even had a couple of planes for sale, a 172 and a Cherokee 140, but said it would be better to wait and rent for a while before making a choice to buy a plane. He said I could come by anytime and also said it would be best to wait till February to start when I'm back from vacation.

I'm looking forward to it.

How much does insurance run for a plane? I would think it would be high for the rental's as they get a lot of training on them with multiple inexperienced pilots.

Is insurance required? Does it cover anything except the plane?

I pay around $1200/year for full coverage on my Pacer which I keep in a hangar. It has been awhile since I reviewed the policy, but it covers flying and non flying damage to the aircraft up to an agreed value and it covers property and bodily harm to others including passengers up to a certain dollar amount. The rates can vary depending on pilot experience, whether or not it is hangared and what kind of dollar limits are desired on the liability portion.

I do not believe it is "required", but the stakes are too high IMO to not have at least liability insurance. As far as the aircraft itself... $40,000 airplane is not "chump change" to me so I also carry hull coverage YMMV.