Flying lessons
 

I am thinking that I would like to get a pilots license. It is my understanding that I can get a sports certificate for around $4000, or a pilots license for around $6000. I'm 54 and I have the time and money. I'm planning on signing up for a intro flight soon. Is there any advice here from those who have done this?

And how much does a 4 seater plane run these day's?

I would get an instructor that you get along with ( you will be spending a lot of time with them ) and fly as often as you can, twice a day even. As a student you would be surprised at how fast you lose proficiency.

Biggest thing for you is to like CC mentioned, find an older instructor and one that is not looking to get on with the airlines.

If you start out with a younger instructor, then chances are good that part way through the instruction they will leave for the airlines, then you start at square one with the instructor. Find someone who will stick with you for the entire time.

Also my minimums for something like this is to fly at least once a week, hopefully twice a week minimum. That way as CC said you do not waste your time and $$ re-learning what you have forgotten.

I would find a C-172 or the like, a four seater as they are more stable, have a bit more power and are not thrashed like most two seat Cessna C-150/152's are. No idea how much they are going for these days.

Also would try to find a smaller airport to fly out of in your area. You do not want to waste money waiting at the "hold short" line while the 11th airline in line lands. You waste money and learn nothing while doing this. If you really want to learn, find someone teaching in a taildragger type airplane. If you can land one of these, you can land anything!

Joe A

The airport that I'm planning on is small enough that today they had a car show on the taxiway and were also having a pumpkin drop. We went down for the car show and had no idea what a pumpkin drop was, until the planes started going up and the pumpkins started falling from the sky. We didn't stay around to see if anyone actually hit the target.

I'm not sure what kind of plane they are teaching in. I know for the intro flight you choose between a two seater and four seater. The four seater cost a little more.

I'm going on vacation soon and will be gone off and on till February. So I won't start till then, should I wait for warmer weather? Ive wanted to do this for years but never really had the time. I'm not working so I could go up several times a week.

Joe, around here, it's almost impossible to even find a 150/152. We're busy thrashing on 172's. :D Once those are done, we'll move to the 182's!

Around here, planes go for about $100 for a 10 hour block rate. Instructors should be about $40 an hour. Fly a lot, don't get discouraged and have fun!

Yeah, taking a break in the middle of training does set you back. I took a little time off, my solo endorsement expired and now I get to solo again. At the rate I'm going now, I should have my ticket by the end of the year. I'm cramming for my written test at the moment and just need 10 hours of solo time. Then the two finals tests.

Good luck! Watch "One Six Right"... Should still be on Hulu.com...

Dave, keep going and get it done. Assume you have the written done already?

Problem with the training aircraft is that all the makers, especially Cessna totally stopped making them for almost 15 years due to the frigging lawsuits. Finally we got some legislation that allowed them to build aircraft without taking on 50 years of past history and they started making them again. That means that while there were no new airplanes built all these years the ones the flight schools had really flogged them.

~~~~~

As far as flying in Feb when you get back or not, sure, go for it. The performance of the airplane is MUCH better with colder weather and you might as well get going.

Spend the extra money for the 4 seater as you will feel more comfortable in it and its more stable. Then you can try a 2 seater later on and see which one you like the most.

As for "16 Right" get a copy of it and enjoy. Most pilot shops have it but make sure you get the right one. They sold a lot of HD versions early on that would not work on a normal machine.

Here it is on Hulu... Hulu - One Six Right - Watch the full movie now.

Joe, no written yet. I've been studying really hard for the written and I am using the Gleim, test prerrp software. I may go for the written in a couple weeks. Still have a couple of sections that need attention.

I STRONGLY agree with Joe about flying as often as possible... much easier to progress vs spreading it out over a year or more.

I do not agree about choosing a 172 four seater over a 150/152 two seater.... Nothing wrong with training in a four seater, but for initial training, I see absolutely zero reasons to pay more for a four seater if they have a two seater available.

Tim, it's just that they are becoming scarce and can be quite cramped with two big guys. Also, of the four flight schools I looked at around his area, only one had a 152. I only found one 152 with a quick search at my local airport as well and it's being offered at $99 an hour and a 172 at the same location is going or $108.. I'm actually flying 172's and a Warrior for $85/hr.

If you have the electronic version of the test to prep with, keep taking it until you get an 85% average after taking it several times.

Then you are ready for the real thing. Any question you do not know the answer to, move on and leave it blank as you very well may see the answer later on. Then go back and work on the questions you were not sure of or just did not know. You will pass it this way...

Joe

The posted rates at the local place is $92 for a 152 and $108 for a 172. I don't know how many are available. Instruction is $48 per hour. I plan on stopping by the first of the week to get more information.

How long does this generally take?

I'm partial to the PA28 tribe. The 140's suck for hot and high work but a warrior or a 180/Archer are great. I started on a Cherokee 180 then switched to a series of 172's then went back to the same Cherokee I started on years ago. I saw a mid timed warrior the other day with some pretty nice avionics for like 28k. If I were new to flying today and serious about it I would buy a warrior with about 800 SMOH and some newer avionics (KX-155's come to mind) and a current IFR cert, get my private and Instrument in it and put 300 or so hours on it then sell it for about what I bought it for. Of course you will be paying tie-down, insurance, maintenance, fuel, ect but 300 hours X $100/hr = 30k, and its your plane that everything is where you left it and you know it pretty well.

Jackson

For all my pilot budies, here's a question to ponder. As your instructer too.

If you are flying at night straight and level at 5000 feet AGL on a 090 heading and you see the nav lights of a co-altitude aircraft in the distance directly in front of you.. You see the red light on the left and the green light on the right. What does that tell you?

You are too close to the water?

It depends on you and how much time you can spend doing it. I was fortunate to solo after 6 hours of dual instruction. The remainding 34 hours went pretty fast. If you can put in 2,4 or 6 hours a week, you'll be done in no time. Then it is just the written and flight exams.

You might consider a flying club to get cheaper rates on the airplane. I did so back in 1981 and the rate was $15.00 for a Cherokee 140. The club had 6 140's, 2 150's, 2 151's, a Cherokee Six, an Arrow and a Seneca.

How much money do you have? If thats not an issue, then take the study materials with you on vacation and get the written out of the way first. A 80% or higher means an easier oral with the examiner, so study.

Then most people do it in 50 hours or so. Some less (the minimum is 40) but some even more. If you can fly every day that will help. As Dave mentioned before taking time off usually results in things taking longer.

Jackson,

Some people like Pipers and some hate them. I am in the second list as they frankly fly like a truck when compared to a Cessna. That said lots of people like the low wings for their visability.

Best for someone to fly both and see which one they like the best. I have about 800 hours in a PA-28 and still hated how they fly, but in this case the $$ they paid me to fly it made it worthwhile.

Also Jacksons comments about buying one is good. I bought a C-150 with a friend years ago, we both got our licenses then sold it for exactly what we paid for it. Then bought a Cardinal C-177 and flew it for several years and sold it for $1000 over what we paid for it. You can buy a plane, fly it for 50-100 hours while getting your license and experience then sell it and prolly come out ahead if you buy it right in the first place.

Nope. Although if you were 90 degrees nose down over the water, you might see your own reflection in the water just before you died.

I should have said you were flying straight and level at 5000 feet AGL on a 090 heading and the distant aircraft is co-altitude directly in front of you.

no reason you shouldnt be able to get a 100% on the written. the gleim stuff literally repeats the actual questions. if you go through it 10 times, you'll know it. i took my ATP written in about 20 minutes....just because i had already seen the questions. i scored 100's on every single written test i took. ...and i'm not that smart.

joe's offered great advice. go for the cheapest plane, fly as often as possible, and get it done.

i agree with joe on the piper/cessna debate. i learned on cherokee 180's and once i switched over to flying a 172, i was surprised at how much nicer of a plane it was to fly (and mostly land). that being said...either plane will get you to the same place.

i quit flying commercially, and i'm now a controller at an enroute center. we have this program called "operation rain check" where pilots come in on the weekends and get to learn about ATC. because of my flying background, i'm one of the guys that takes the pilots around the center and explains stuff to them. great experience for the pilots.

not sure what airport you'll be flying out of, but if it's controlled, see if you can arrange a tower visit during your training.

you're following the aircraft, or (prior to you adding the additional info) there could have been two aircraft crossing in front of you, same altitude, at a 90 degree angle to you.

I'm the opposite of Joe. My nemisis is th err Cessna. I love the Warrior and low wing planes in general.

Well, if you are following an aircraft, you would not be able to see the wing tip nav lights, just the white tail nav light and the anti-collision light(s). As for two aircraft crossing in front, that would be true, but I did say a single aircraft.

The aircraft is in front of you and going the same direction.

Well you all have failed my question. At least for the answer I was looking for.

If you are flying at night straight and level at 5000 feet AGL on a 090 heading and you see the nav lights of a co-altitude aircraft in the distance directly in front of you.. You see the red light on the left and the green light on the right. What does that tell you?

The only way you can see both the red and green wing tip nav lights is if the distant aircraft is flying toward you or at a slight angle. If you see a red light on the left and a green light on the right, there is two possibilities. Either you or the distant aircraft is inverted.

The proper visual for an oncoming aircraft would be to see the green light on the left and the red light on the right.

So, if it was green on the right as you said, then the aircraft is going the same direction so Dave got it right.

My advice as a CFII MEI and AGI (flight instructor) for 30 years, do not fly on those days that are marginal weather or the weather exceeds your or the planes ability. Today I was just informed of the instructor that took me on my first flight in high school is in the ICU after a mishap in a twin Piper. I have left the airport many times opting not to fly due to the weather. This is after checking with the weather service with a decent report by phone. Don't let someone try to change your mind and try to talk you into flying an a marginal day. The last numbers I have from the FAA is the average number of flight hours to get a license (private) is 67 hours and $8300. In my Cessna 170 I charge $145 an hour. It adds up fast and I have seen many people start and quit due to funding or family Issues. There is nothing better than flying on a beautiful day and not much worse than flying in weather on a bad day. Good luck and pick your days.

I stated that you could see the red on the left and the green on the right while flying. If both you and the oncoming aircraft were upright, you would see the red on the right and the green on the left. Dave said the aircraft was in front and going the same direction. You can't see the wing tip red or green lights from behind.

Maybe this will help.
Aircraft Navigation Lights | Learn to Fly Canada

I think it depends on the plane and where the lights are located on the tips. Another pilot agrees with my answer and so did a quick Goolge during dinner.

I agree. Both answers are acceptable. I think it is more likely that both planes are upright in this context. Holding altitude and heading while inverted at night is not that easy.

in that case, let's say it's an aerobatic aircraft, flying at night, in front of you. in a quick "oh man, let's do a hammerhead" moment...he decides to yank back on the yoke and go vertical. as you keep trucking along, you see what appears to be the planform of an aircraft with a red light on the left, and a green light on the right. he's not coming towards you, but still manages to show his super cool navlights to you.

:rolleyes:

Even older aircraft with the wing tip nav lights of the old school design, the lens and cover are designed to keep the light shining forward and outboard at a 110 degree arc, never aft.

http://media.chiefaircraft.com/media...A650PG14_1.jpg

Even the light bulb itself is designed to shine forward and outboard.
http://media.chiefaircraft.com/media..._7512-24_1.jpg

If the aircraft is in front of you, you would see the white tail nav light. I never said that in the original question. Only green and red are visible.

If the aerobatic pilot is showing you a planform view of his aircraft, you would see the white tail nav light. Again, in my original question, you only see the red and green nothing else.

Even if holding altitude/heading while inverted isn't easy, it could be done, but your oil and fuel system must be designed for extended duration in that flight attitude.

some more info:
Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Aircraft Lights & Beacons

Maybe this pdf will explain all as it describes the designs and requirements of nav lighting.
http://www.goodrich-lighting.com/catalog/Chapter08_Navigation_Lights/08_0025_Navigation_Lights.pdf?expand=1

I'm just saying that if you see a red light on the left and a green light on the right, you better check your ADI to make sure it isn't you and then watch out 'cause the other guy may be doing rolls or spilled his coffee in his lap and he is coming right at you.

The FAR's explain it all regarding aircraft nav lighting.

Don't get me wrong, this is all good stuff.

Based on the above, your answer is not possible in a non-aerobatic plane. I know how spatial disorientation works, I've been blindfolded and asked to turn the plane in one direction, hold it for a few seconds and then attempt to straighten the plane out. I've also been inverted numerous times in an aerobatic plane and there is no mistaking that feeling, not to mention that everything that is not secured has now hit the ceiling.

I'm no pilot, but after reading the original "What does that tell you?" post my first though was it probably means....
"You'd better turn. Soon."
:D

learning to fly...
 

Yes there is lots good advice above. Learning how to do an accurate 180 degree turn is one of the best things to do. For instance if you see an undercast in the distance and you are a new pilot, then dont get caught flying above a cloud layer unless you have a suitably equipped aircraft and you have an ifr rating. I like the old expression, "learn from the mistakes of other pilots because you wont live long enough to make them all yourself". There is so much to learn when you are a new pilot especially after you have gone solo. The other expression is "there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots"

The comments above about flying in poor weather-low ceiling and low vis. holds true. Do not do it . Believe me it is no fun unless you have experience, it can be dangerous and it could be illegal. There are a lot of negatives above but as Clint Eastwood says , "man has got to know his limitations". In other words do your homework, study hard and fly on good weather days especially when you are first learning to fly. It is much more enjoyable this way.

The above poster is totally correct and he has never flown. If the two lites in front of you are not moving,watch out and possibly evasive action may be needed to avoid a collision!
Hope this all helps.

you can say im intimately familiar with the FAR's. and yes, you will see the nav lights if you're looking down (or at) the planform of an aircraft. your original question had multiple correct answers.

I should have been more explicit in my original question. But it did bring up good discussions.

... and Dave brings up a good topic. Spacial Disorientation. This will kill you real fast. Such as what happened the Day the Music Died.

Civil Aeronautics Board Report on the Crash that killed Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and the Big Bopper

Back during my private/instrument/commercial pilot training you will wear an IFR training hood that will limit your vision to only inside the aircraft. The instructor will ask you to close your eyes and look down while he slowly puts the aircraft into an unusual attitude. Then he will say "ok, you have it" and you will have to make corrections to put the aircraft back on a straight and level attitude/airspeed. Your body will tell you everything is ok, but the instruments will tell you something completely different. It may be difficult to make aircraft adjustments when your inner ear is telling you the opposite. Bottom line, trust your instruments.

Here is some interesting stuff on spacial disorientation and sensory illusions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_illusions_in_aviation

DC.

First of all, so much good gouge already...read and heed.

You can do a lot of up front work using software packages readily available before you even get in a plane. It works.

Also, if they will let you go sit in the aircraft you're going to fly before your first lesson. Learn where the nobs and switches are, run through the checklists...don't touch anything, just get comfortable with the "office". Close your eyes and reach out and point to specific instruments, AI, etc.

I always did this in flight school and in the fleet aircraft I flew. Your mind will be racing on your first flight so eliminating as many new experiences as possible helps.

Lastly, instructors are there to help and enable, the relationship between the two of you is critical. If you are not happy, find another one. It is your money and time.

It is a great journey and a wonderful skill to try and master.

Thank's guy's. I am planning on stopping by the airport tomorrow. Hopefully I will be able to get more info then. I have all the time in the world, so I defiantly don't plan on going up in bad weather. I will also look into the software packages available.

What would be a good software package? And where would I buy it?

Tons of them...Microsoft is very good.

flight software - Google Search

I went for a 1/2 hour flight with my neighbor this afternoon. He has a Cub and has his own grass strip.

We bounced the pattern for 10 minutes then watched a Harmon Rocket do arco over the Potomac.

beautiful day.