Why I hate working on "old" plumbing
 

BEGIN RANT HERE!!!!

Replaced the very, very old GE hot water heat, uhm make that 2.5 years old before it died a horrible death. (Wife wants to put it down range as a target... We are having to replace all the GE appliances which are hitting the ripe old age of two to three years, previous owners loved GE.)

Neighbor had pulled out a still working two year old commercial grade hot water heater from their house in order to go with an on demand in-line system. So, a few trades later we have a new to us heater in exchange for some stuff neither of us wanted in the first place.

Now, the new heater has lots of PEX already hooked up, great! I have a conglomeration of 3/8" copper (original to '61 house) and rapidly self destructing 1/2" pvc (added in past 12 years by PO) that I have been slowly replacing.

Drain and remove old unit, bring in new unit and line up. Cut old copper tubing, have clean surfaces and install compression fittings. Add in the PEX line connectors, tighten everything up, bend the PEX until it holds form, connect, turn on water, tight seal. Everything is OK, ready to go!! Heater heats up quickly and Wife is happy.

Fast forward a few hours. I have this uneasy feeling. Go into basement, yep, system failure. Seems in the wiggling of lines the OLD compression fittings further down the line have sprung leaks. Oh, and the new compression fittings have sprung leaks as well.

I work in the middle of nowhere Indiana so Wife is taking pipes into town and buying new fittings and more PEX line.

Any bets on how much I end up replacing this week????? Already ran, this past summer, from street up to house and out to barns with new lines. PO ran the lines in PVC. This might have been ok, but he forgot to put SEALANT and GLUE on the connections!!!! Ran the PEX inside the lines where we could and paid a plumber to dig up and lay lines where the PEX could not be pushed/pulled.

Don't even want to get started on all the new electrical replaced from garage to barns with new wire and boxes or the fact we re-insulated the attic Saturday.

Rats.

Sounds like you're having a lot of fun. Ain't old houses grand. At least you don't have aluminum wiring.

PEX is the best thing since sliced bread! We used a lot of it on the boats in Ft Lauderale. Never been a fan of compression fittings. Installers (non plumbers) tend to over tighten them, then the fact that 99% of them are made in China and are junk to begin with. If you stay with copper sweat soldering is the only way to go. I think you said the house was built in 1961. I hope when you ran new line from the street to the house you installed a new shut off valve. At least twice a year the valve needs to be "exercised". Turn it off and back on, that way it won't seize in the on position. I see you're in Indiana, I was born in Terre Haute and now live in SW Indiana. People ask me why I moved back. I tell them I got tired of the beach and the nice weather...

I can relate to working on old plumbing. In the late '60s I worked at a summer camp as a summer job. The camp plumber was a drunk, so they told me to work with him because some time he would go on a binge & they would fire him. Well, that happened and I ended up as the plumber among other things. The camp was built around 1950 with all cast iron pipe underground and septic tanks. Of course the case iron was always failing, and I was constantly replacing sections of it with PVC (which was a relatively new thing) as time went on. The big problem was there wasn't a map of any of the underground plumbing, water, electrical. I had learned to witch out those things from a plumber I worked with in New York several years before, so I was able to map everything out, locate the septic tanks, etc. What a PITS it was.

There is an art to working with old plumbing. Some guys make it look easy. I have all the tools but refuse to work on anyone else's plumbing. And of course as with all things done at home, it takes forever.

At my old house built in the late 50s still had some lead drain pipes. It is fun to go into a plumbing supply place ans ask for lead connectors. :)

Most of the house had been converted to copped but the toilet and kitchen sink still had lead drains.

professional plumbers just love do it yourself people...;)

The trick to working with old plumbing is not to twist it when removing old connections. Hold it with a pipe wrench to counter the twisting of removing the connectors. Also replace it as far back as you practically can so there are less joins. Old pipes rust on the inside so you will get better water pressure if you can replace it from the street onwards. DON'T use the sabre saw to cut the pipes. It will shake the sh** out of it and make old connections leak plus losen any old rust and gunk in the pipes that will block filters further down the line. And yes, I've made all these mistakes.

Yep, I overtightened the compression fittings the first time around and clobberred them the second time around..... I used a pipe wheel to take off the old connections but still managed to jiggle around the old plumbing enough to loosen up the compression fittings. Most fittings are sweated in but for some reason the fittings going to sinks, toilets, washer, dishwashers, and hot water heater were all compression fittings. I hate them!!!!

Our plumber friend sends me his love and is laughing at me, though this was too small of a job for him to want anyway. I'll have to drink a cider in his name tonight...

electric wire was the old aerial type run as single copper strands. The insulation had rotted off in the past fourty years. The fuse panels, yes fuses, were old, rusty, and had dead things in them. The plugs were basically open to the world. Most of the barn and garage wiring was added later by the PO and he LOVED extension cords. Ran them EVERYWHERE! The ones with the three plugs on the end, they were the best! Now I seem to have enough extension cords for other things.

Thanks for making me feel better and having a go a laughing!



We're from Texas. Moved up here for a job and I really don't want to go further into this story.... Did not work out!

Amen!!

Oh and I LOVE old plumbing too

Re-piped my 1979 house a few years ago to replace the galvanized crap. The architect designed the house with the water heater in a closet in the center of the house, with no pan and no drain. I moved the water heater outside when I put in copper. It takes longer for hot water to reach the kitchen and bathrooms, but at least the WH is outside in a sheet metal cabinet. I think the architect who designed my house must have been the high school draftsmen son of the developer. I have copper wiring, several houses in the tract have AL wiring.

Not to change the subject but I assume you've seen the news reports about Groesbeck running out of water in the next week or so unless they get the pipeline from the rock quarry run ASAP??

Unfortunately a lot of other places around the state are nearing the same predicament re: the never ending drought.

WOW Jack, did not see that!!!! Out to read up on the news! Man, the lakes must be dry!


Justin, Wife asks if you make house calls???? ;-)



Wife installed the plumbing this afternoon, so far, so good!!! (Yep, I've got a GREAT WIFE!!!!!) (Oh, she wanted to state, for the record, she did provide reverse pressure to the pipes. Learned it from the days working with an old plumber! Don't know why she went to college long enough to get a Doctorate and a Diplomate.)

AL wiring was allowed in 1965-66. It is fine if you have the outlets fixed with the kits to make them safe. My parents house in upstate NY had Aluminum wiring. An outlet fire brought the issue to their attention and they installed the kits all over the house.

make house calls?,,,yes but you dont want that bill.. maryland to indiana $$$$

I don't mind making the house call from Canada no cash payment required.
Trade only, any swb 911 as long as I can drive it back to Toronto! lol

Don't bash a "fuse box" I'd take a fuse over a breaker any day. Fuses don't fail, I've known a breaker to fail. Any old electricians on the site who want to chime in? You can do stupid stuff like putting a penny behind a fuse, etc., but I like a fuse box. I've bought alot of old houses for rentals that had the old wiring, glass mounts with two stranded wiring. Had the old 60 amp C boxes. Changed the wiring and left the box. Never a problem. The codes changed and started to have to put breaker boxes in, kept lots of 15/20 amp breakers to replace the ones in service. Back to the plumbing, the last house the wife and I owned was built in 1955. Old lead piping. Slow leaks with rusting stalactites (sp) (is that up or down?) from the leaks on the basement floor. Changed all that stuff out with CPVC. Oh, the fun of house ownership!!!

What is the story with aluminum wiring?

Here's an example of "new" plumbing by a licensed and bonded plumber.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1322542021.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1322542041.jpg

Explain how the filter will be changed. No, wait, it gets better. The filter was NOT INSTALLED either. And yes, they caulked the housing to the line passing below.

It's a simple request, yet we continue to get the same half assed work. This is not a house, it's a hospital. Different plumber, different facilities.

We ask "please make a bypass so we can change the filter and NOT interrupt fluid flow". Does that sound difficult to accomplish?

Too funny & sad at the same time.

Old plumbing doesn't really bug me, but all the old plumbing I've worked with has been copper. I haven't started using PEX yet and only use PVC for drains, and haven't had any issues so far. :)

Of course I say this without trying to jinx myself because I'm buying a rental house that was built around 1920 next month, and it has three known plumbing issues... one new wax ring needed, one hose bib on the water supply for the washing machine and one mystery leak under the kitchen faucet.

inspection BEFORE insulation!:confused:

Fuse boxes are ok unless they are open so every mouse, spider, and other assorted critter can access them.... I would change out any such box fuse or breaker. Trust me, the garage and barn were fires waiting to happen. From the second we cut off the old lines the electric usage has dropped in half. This includes connecting the new lines and additional outlets. Phantom current going somewhere from bare copper electric lines, very scary!


Don,

I can get you better than that! But my "work" does not look so neat... However there is a gentleman in Maryland who makes house calls and one from Toronto willing to come over for the small price of a SWB ;-)

It never ceases to amaze me how things can be misunderstood. Did yall give a specification as to clearance and types of unit to install? We have to specify everything down to the smallest detail. Too many ways to interpret and too many of the interpretations provide the fiasco you show above. Rather sad, really.

The issue I have with fuses (the screw in kind with a base like a light bulb) is that the screw that the center post screws down against gets loose from heat cycling. I don't know how many range/dryer problems I've solved by tightening the screw and putting in a new fuse. If it gets too bad, of course, you have to replace the fuse box.

We bought an old lake cabin last spring that needed all of the pipes replaced. First time I ever used PEX and I will never go back to copper. Cheap, very easy to install and not one leak! I used the manifold system so you only have a connector at the manifold and one at the end of the line for each faucet. Almost instant hot water and no change in water pressure or temperature if you are in the shower and someone flushes the toilet.

Being licensed and bonded doesn't mean you have common sense

whatever Plumber did that job has no integrity and probably could care less about the work he performs

I guarantee that he did all the piping work without allowing space for insulation then he realized what he did and said fuch it.

Don,

The "bypass" is not correct. A critical system should be dual filter. There are a prebuilt switchover types. Or you could build a second filter into the "bypass". The extra cost would be peanuts and you will always have clean water at all times.

Oh, and what is the insulation for? If the line is hot, and that is water, I doubt that the filter is rated for hot water. If it is to prevent freezing, the bypass line will freeze, not to mention the filter.

I only do residential service work but im pretty sure that buildings like hospitals and other industrial plants are required to have all water lines hot and cold insulated

that is a POS filter you can buy at HD....Plumber taken cheap route

insulation would cut down on condensation from high volume of cold water running through copper pipes

True, this is hospital chilled water feeding a helium compressor on an MRI scanner. They ( facilities personnel ) usually say it's already filtered but we change the filter semi-annually and it's dirty. Really helped the compressor's up time.

I'm sure I'll have to adapt - our residence is a mix of galvanized, copper and PEX, with the later being found mostly in the 2003 addition that I'm going to do loads of work on. For now though, the crimp connections do kind of worry me. I've seen a lot of rusty and corroded ones and don't know how long that'd take for one to let go.

what do you mean by this?

The temperature and pressure relief valve is only supposed to blow if there is a problem(i.e. too much pressure or too high temperature)

Justin,

Thanks for the input! The relief valve started blowing by last night. The temperature on top was set low, the bottom temperature (electric unit) was set a bit high. We'll see if this corrects.

I have a pressure limiter at the street as we are off a line at the bottom of the valley and all the water is pushing downhill to our house and then uphill to several houses west of us over the course of another mile. The limiter went bad last year and was replaced. Wonder if the new one could be going bad as well?

Anyway, the old unit did not have the relief valve blowing.

the T&P valve will not blow due to temperature being a little high...the temp would have to go extreme before it blows

Go to HD they sell a pressure gauge that you simply screw on to a hose faucet and it will show your pressure...residential house should be no higher then 75PSI

Also thermal expansion may also be your problem..did you install thermal expansion tank or expansion relief valve?

If this is your problem the T&P relief valve will blow almost everyytime the heater heats the water

The easy way to avoid plumbing installations that you aren't happy with, is to pay the plumber after the job has been inspected.
I've been in buiness for 18yrs and never taken a deposit for any project, or sent the invoice untill I made sure the customer was happy.
Just remember you only get what you pay for, the low price isn't always the best price.

"The bitter taste of poor quality remains much longer than the sweet taste of a low price". Omar Khayyam. (1048-1123) ...

Justin,

The valve is a pressure relief valve as I remember it. Wife installed it yesterday while I cleaned up after the horses and took care of their needs. I'll double check tonight.

Anyway, the new valve was sitting pretty still this morning with no water running out of the tank, down the utility room floor, and out the drain! Yeay, dry cat feet!!!! (Utility room has litter pan in it...)


Plumber,

Very good advice! Omar Khayyam was dead on!

Unfortunately, this was a DIY job without a plumber involved. The work I did leaked. The work Wife did was good.



Ah well, another leak in a different area last night. Did I mention that I LOVE old plumbing, especially in cold weather??????

David, If you need any over the phone help PM me Ill give you my number