Salary negotiations

masraum · 11-30-2011, 09:09 PM

Man, I hate this stuff. I'm going in to begin negotiations tomorrow. Wish me luck. I've been reading the info in these threads as it seems pretty good. Sammyg2 seems to really have a handle on this stuff. I'm hoping I can channel a little bit of him.

Job interview - What does one do when asked about salary expectation?

Advice on job offer

I am currently working contract to hire. This is the "to hire" part. I would be willing to accept about 10% more than their initial offer, but of course, would welcome more than that. I assume that I should I counter offer a bit over that and then try to negotiate down to what I want.

I think I'm in a decent position. I've been told my manager that it takes 11 months for a top notch person to get up to speed. I've been here 5 months as a contractor and I've worked lots of OT so they would be throwing away a healthy investment of time and money if they don't hire me. Not only that, but they are paying handsomely for me as a contractor. I also think that the manager is happy with my performance and the fact that I've worked more OT than anyone else, and I think I'm more knowledgeable and experienced than the other folks (there are a handful of us contractors) that they are converting. Unfortunately, I don't think my manager is very involved with the process other than I assume telling them how he thinks I am performing and how much he wants me. My negotiation is over the phone with an HR person several states away. That really sucks. I think this would be a bit easier for me if it were face to face.

Wish me luck!

Rouxzy · 11-30-2011, 09:36 PM

Masraum,
Good Luck, and I agree that use the advice given by Sammyg2. I too was in a similar situation where they wanted to know my compensation history. I told them they would need to contact my past employer. They then told me that it was against the law for them to release personal information. I then told them that is why I could not give them my pay history, but if they were offering me the position then I would be more than happy to discuss any offers. Long story short, the HR person flipped out, the VP, and other managers at the meeting apologized to me and said that they would be in contact with me. I later refused the position because I found out the place was a mad house. One piece of solid advice that I was told long ago that the first person to name a price will always lose. Good Luck!
Tom

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Good luck. Aim high. Don't just aim a little high expecting to be negotiated down, aim really high and hold as firm as you can. Convince yourself that they need you more than you need them.

Best to you.

Baz · Baz's Garage

Best wishes Steve...you can do it...just stay cool calm and collected and you'll be fine.

masraum · 12-01-2011, 06:55 AM

Thanks all, I hate this stuff.

sammyg2 · 07:59 AM

in today's business climate, most companies feel they have a prospective employee over a bbl and will low-ball them. You touched on the secret when you mention that you hate this stuff. They know that and they are prolly better at it.

A couple things to keep in mind when playing poker, if you want to bluff you have to take the chance of getting called on it.

Salary negotiations are similar to playing poker, it's a game and in every game yo can win or lose. The more you risk the bigger the potential win and also an increased chance at lose.

Couple things to keep in mind, it isn't personal. It's just a game and to do well you have to play the game well.
They're counting that you hate the game and don't want to play the game and don't want to risk losing, so you'll take a low-ball offer and they win.
if you really want the job and dont want to risk not getting it, then just give up and take the low-ball offer. Lots of folks do that and they know it.

but if you are willing to play the game and possibly take a little more risk, here's some hints:

You're job in the game is to let them know they need to offer more, but you have to do it in a non-confrontational manner. You are working WITH them to find a solution, not AGAINST them.
Use that. Let them know you want to help them do their job and get you hired, but they are not going to be able to accomplish their task without sweetening the pot.
Kep the attitude that it's not personal and it's simply a problem that needs to be solved and you're willing to help them solve it. But ya GOTTA make it seem like a win win.
Reinforce the concept that offering you more money will help the company, and be prepared to show them exactly how. Sell your service with facts and details, data.
A dangerous but potentially worthwhile move is to mention that in order for an employee to be sucessful in the long term, the compensation must be right for the job and employee. Otherwise retention and satisdfaction and motivation might be a problem. But be really careful how you word that so it doesn't come off as a threat. That could backfire really easily.
Doing your homework and being well prepared is absolutely manditory to pull something like that off.

And take your time. No sense trying to make it quick.
They have a task to do and their boss wants them to get it done. If it takes a looooooong time, they start sweating and get pressure from the boss.
"HAVEN'T YOU GOT DONE THAT YET?"

Meet with them, then if possible take some time. Find an excuse to get back to them, but don't say "I need to think that over". Say somethnig like "that's an interesting option but it requires some study. I'd like a [specified period of time] to evaluate it if that's OK with you".

When I got hired by my current employer it took over three months to work out all the details.
For a while they were waiting to see if I would flinch and take the bait, but eventually they were the ones flinching. That can be a risky game. If you drag your feet too much they'll get frustrated and may say fuch it. If they get the impression that you don't know if you want the job that can work against you.
Don't make it seem like you can't decide. Make it seem like you need to do some more homework or research or gather facts, or whatever.
Make it sound like the time is required for a purpose, not because of indecision. Remind them at every opportunity that you really want to work for them, but you need to make sure the details are right so the move will be successful for everyone.

I really like that commercial where someone offers him something and he says ...AND?......

Attitude is your biggest ally or enemy. Maintain a confident and pleasant expression, but don't be smarly. And it is not personal!

masraum · 12-01-2011, 08:14 AM

Thanks Sammy

sammyg2 · 12-01-2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masraum

Thanks Sammy

I just hope it helps a little, and GOOD LUCK!

masraum · 12-01-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Good luck. Are you getting paid for your OT now and wil you be if you get hired?

I have a co-worker who was just changed from exempt to hourly. He was bicthing up a storm until I reminded him that he either a) works a lot less for the same money or b) works the same hours for a lot more.

But, I'm sure you've already factored that in.

I currently get paid straight hourly including ot. I'll be going salaried, but I will get 1.5x for ot as well.

masraum · 12-01-2011, 10:35 AM

Wow, holy carp! I just called and tried to use some of the things that have been suggested. This chick is harsh.

"OK, ## is the number that we are currently prepared to offer. That is the number. If you are turning down the position at that number let me know. If so, then please let me know what the minimum number is that you would be happy with. We want you to be happy. We are very excited to bring you on and would like to get this moving. Take some time if you want, but we can't wait too long."

The pressure to answer "are you turning down the job at ##?" and "will you walk away if you don't get that number?" "Come up with a minimum and the keyword is "minimum" number that you would be happy with and let me know and I will see if we can do anything." So I definitely got the impression that they might be able to do more, but there was also a lot of pressure of "are you turning down the job?" I've never run into that before and it threw me way off.

KFC911 · 12-01-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masraum

Wow, holy carp! I just called and tried to use some of the things that have been suggested. This chick is harsh.
....

I saw this thread earlier, but kept my yapper shut...Good luck Steve!

ps: I've always fared well in negotiations, but a lot of the advice offered simply doesn't apply for an IT networking guy unless you're in a REAL position to bargain. No way in hell would "I" be negotiating with an HR person over the phone...that's what your manager is for

.

sammyg2 · 12-01-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masraum

Wow, holy carp! I just called and tried to use some of the things that have been suggested. This chick is harsh.

"OK, ## is the number that we are currently prepared to offer. That is the number. If you are turning down the position at that number let me know. If so, then please let me know what the minimum number is that you would be happy with. We want you to be happy. We are very excited to bring you on and would like to get this moving. Take some time if you want, but we can't wait too long."

The pressure to answer "are you turning down the job at ##?" and "will you walk away if you don't get that number?" "Come up with a minimum and the keyword is "minimum" number that you would be happy with and let me know and I will see if we can do anything." So I definitely got the impression that they might be able to do more, but there was also a lot of pressure of "are you turning down the job?" I've never run into that before and it threw me way off.

She really thinks she's got all the control and is using it well. In a one minute call she already has you ready to cave.
Now back to the original question, are you willing to play the game and take a chance at losing it?
Sounds like you really want the job, so the safest thing to do would be to either take their low-ball offer or counter 10% higher and see if they bite.
It's all about acceptable risk now and she knows it. She thinks you need them allot more than they need you.
But, harsh as she was she left the door open in a couple ways when she said they wanted you to be happy and asked for a counter-offer.
The question is, how much higher are they willing to go? is their low-ball offer really low, or just a little low?

Next question, is she the only person you can deal with? is there any way you can get the person you'll be working for involved?
If it's just her, she has no dog in the hunt except to get it over with. She doesn't care about you, you're just another task on her to-do list. If you were talking to her and being nice, then you'd become a person to her and she MIGHT care.

KC nailed it, that's not the type of thing I'd like to do over the phone. In person you could really turn on the charm

We have an HR person at work who has been here a long time and she is not known for her warmth or caring attitude.
I was in her office once and saw her 30 year service award on the wall. I said "30 years... how old were you when you started here, 11??
She's been sickingly nice to me ever since.

masraum · 12-01-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC911

I saw this thread earlier, but kept my yapper shut...Good luck Steve!

ps: I've always fared well in negotiations, but a lot of the advice offered simply doesn't apply for an IT networking guy unless you're in a REAL position to bargain. No way in hell would "I" be negotiating with an HR person over the phone...that's what your manager is for

.

My manager is a good guy. He had originally told me something like "don't talk numbers with me, I'm not the numbers guy, talk to the HR person."

masraum · 12-01-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

But, harsh as she was she left the door open in a couple ways when she said they wanted you to be happy and asked for a counter-offer.
The question is, how much higher are they willing to go? is their low-ball offer really low, or just a little low?

That's how I felt. It didn't feel like it was a hard and fast offer, but it certainly sounded pretty firm.

Quote:

Next question, is she the only person you can deal with? is there any way you can get the person you'll be working for involved?
If it's just her, she has no dog in the hunt except to get it over with. She doesn't care about you, you're just another task on her to-do list. If you were talking to her and being nice, then you'd become a person to her and she MIGHT care.

KC nailed it, that's not the type of thing I'd like to do over the phone. In person you could really turn on the charm

Yes, I asked my manager for a chat after the call. I didn't really feel like things were going well, and didn't feel like she cared too much how things went. I feel like my manager is a pretty straight shooter. I told him some of my thoughts and how I felt. He was aware of the numbers. He said that the number that they had given was pretty much the number that they were willing to offer. There are a handful of other folks that are all converting at the same time. He finally asked "what would it take, don't BS me, just give me a number." I said that I had really been looking for 10%, but I could make due with 5%. He said he would get with the HR chick and let me know. I felt a lot better dealing with him. It was face to face, and he's got more of a direct interest in keeping me where like you said, to her, I was just a task that she needed to get done.

I suspect I'll hear more tomorrow. She'd tried to press me for an answer tomorrow, but I'd put her off until Monday. Hopefully, that means that she's motivated to get moving and I hear something tomorrow.

Thanks all for everything. I may not have successfully negotiated much this time, but it's certainly been educational.

KFC911 · 12-02-2011, 01:42 AM

Good luck man...Corporate bs bites.

masraum · 12-02-2011, 05:29 AM

Thanks. I think I'm going to get a little something. And then if they don't pony up the full 5%, I think I'm going to ask for a sign-on bonus to bring it up to the 5%. I don't know that I'm expecting it, but all they can do is say no. This is a bit different than what I'm used to. I'm used to the negotiation being "you work at place A and you're trying to go to place B" So if you don't get it or you tell them $xx or I won't come, you just keep working at A. Unfortunately, this process is "you work at A and you're trying to keep working at A". They know that if you don't take it, then you've got to leave and find another job. I guess in the future, It would help to have something lined up so I could say "give me $xx or I'm out" and I could mean it.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

"I won't go on record as saying I'm rejecting the position; I am still interested in the position as I believe I'm the most qualified individual for it and want to work with you to obtain my services. Can we meet to discuss the value of the total renumeration package (not just salary)? I'm available the end of next week".

That's how I'd play it.

masraum · 12-02-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

"I won't go on record as saying I'm rejecting the position; I am still interested in the position as I believe I'm the most qualified individual for it and want to work with you to obtain my services. Can we meet to discuss the value of the total renumeration package (not just salary)? I'm available the end of next week".

That's how I'd play it.

That sounds pretty good, except that I'm in TX and she's in NY. Meeting is pretty much out which sucks.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Her being in NY explains a lot of the confrontational attitude.

Substitute a request for a follow-up discussion at a point in the future - eliminate urgency. Make it as far out as you think you can get away with.

Just like dating - you can't seem too eager. Don't call back for a while. Works (or used to for me) every time...

masraum · 12-02-2011, 11:40 AM

Well, asked my boss if he had heard anything back from her. He said that he spoke to her and she said that she would review things, and was waiting for me to call back on Monday, so it doesn't sound like talking to him has really made a big difference. I think Monday is still going to be the same.

The interesting news is that a buddy, who just left because he wasn't happy and didn't think the perm money was going to be enough. After lunch he called and said that he should have an opening on Mon at the place where he just went. It will be engineering instead of operations (I've done both and probably actually prefer engineering. It is purely contract, so less secure, but would be more money than I'm currently making. I guess that would make it a bit easier to tell the woman, what my minimum is. I need to talk to the missus more about it to see what she thinks about the whole thing.

There are some non-monetary and/or long term benefits to the current job, 3 days off, 4 weeks of vaca a year, small pension (who in IT works anyplace long enough to get a pension??), etc...

Still, it's a tough decision.