Tablesaw Kickback - "Intentionally videotaped"
 

I just saw this link on Garage Journal this morning and have to share. I know a few of us Pelican's are members over there, but others are not - and any woodworker or wannabe needs to watch this video. I was amazed. The imbedded video on the link is down near the lower left of the page.

Kickbacks! - NewWoodworker.com LLC

:eek:

He does REALLY turn the block of wood into the blade though...

That's how you can lose a finger, or worse, in a fraction of a second! Hope this vid helps someone not make that mistake....

That happened to me about 6 months ago. The piece of wood flew into my stomach and dropped me to my knees. It's the hardest I've ever been hit in the stomach. It knocked the wind out of me big time and left a really nasty bruise on my stomach. Who knows how close my hands were. Scary stuff.

Back when I was an apprentice I noticed that prolly 50% of the journeymen were missing a digit or 2 (or more), As time went on I found a mentor......he had all his digits. We were running 18 X 18 X 48 inch blocks thur a band saw about the size
of a truck on end........the sweat was running down the crack of my ass.
The sum***** sounded like a locomotive on highball.:eek:

Part way thru a cut he reached up and shut the thing down......he was pushing & I was catching. I gave him a WTF (respectfully). He said the blade was cracked, did ya notice the blade was jumping just a bit?......well ......yeah.
He says when it snaps this blade (about 4 inches wide & 30ish feet long) will come
out of there big chunks at about eyeball level. Sure enough the blade was cracked about 1/4 of the way thru. Iza't why so many of your buddies are missing fingers I sez. No this thing will take off an arm....or your head. Thus began my education on running power equipment. My digits have some scars but they still are all there.

BTW, I would no more use a push block like the one the guy used in the vid than I would sit on that blade. Mine are all about 15 inches long and made from wood.
I've never had a kickback (knock wood:D) but my push sticks get remade regular like. Like my mentor Lloyd said :"Them guys were stupid."

I worked in a millwork shop for about a 1 1/2 years and witnessed a guy running the palm of his hand over a 1/2 dado blade on a industrial table saw. It threw his " hand meat " all over the shop not a pretty sight. He was very lucky as all he lost was a trough of palm, just missed tendons and the good stuff. That just reinforced what my dad always said you have to have your head in the game at all times running any power equipment, it only takes a second for potential disaster to strike.

Thanks,

I am ordering a Riving knife or my saw. Been playing with this stuff for 45 years, but the video is pretty compelling that even anticipating stuff, you have little control.

Yeah, uhh.......be careful with kitchen knives, too.

Saw this happen to my dad once when he was cutting a piece of hdpe.... Left a nice mark.

This device has been out a couple of years and now there are some competitors....

SawStop Hot dog Video - Saw blade retracts within 5 milliseconds of accidental contact - YouTube

Oh boy... I'm a metal head and also been into woodworking most of my working life, both as a career building and hobby. Operated many machines but since were talking wood, try some two-man chainsaws with 5 ft bars or 4 ft. diameter circular saws turning 540 rpm mounted to the back of a tractor hitch. Also have done many projects on a tablesaw with cutting very tiny pieces. Most of the time have run tablesaws without guards, splitters, riving knives including many vintage saws. Some would call that not having common sense. Never had an incident and have all my limbs, digits and eyes.

1- Machines have no feelings but if you don't feel good about the machine, don't use it. Its up to you only, not the maker, the employer, or a lawyer.
2- Know the machine AND the stock... type, grain, moisture, etc.. This is a lengthy topic but some examples: verify the rip fence is exact parallel to the blade, read the wood if it's bowed, knots, etc...
3- Don't be anywhere near an idiot running a machine.

That link... was that guy free hand feeding the stock and then he lifts, releasing pressure? He's clearly not confident, and instead could have used a longer board to rip and then cut his length. No wonder and don't get me started!

And about that Sawstop. Wonderful intention and invention BUT I CAN"T STAND individuals pushing for a law for the benefit and monopolize of a product and exactly what the inventor is doing. This guy is using BIG BROTHER GOV pushing it onto every saw maker.

Yes - exactly. I'm well familiar with the product. I talked with the company founder for almost an hour at the IWF show here in Atlanta (maybe 6 years ago?) where it was introduced. If your hand or fingers were to touch the blade during/after a kickback, (as almost occurred in the video) I'm sure the SawStop mechanism would trip and minimal damage would occur. That doesn't stop the board flying towards your body/head though.

He shouldn't be concerned with the table saw
He should be concerned when the doctors remove his feet
Diabetes ain't pretty

I've seen that before. many times, live, in person and up close

I am in my 50's and have only used a table saw a dozen times. Man, I have been lucky after reading this thread and seeing that video.

I mean, I eyeball if it is parallel but I am confident with a cheap table saw (and fence) it would be easy to cock it a little.

respect the tools!

I worked in a custom cabinet shop for a few years and was lucky enough to keep all my fingers. I remember vividly I was being warned about the table saw by an old timer that had been there for a long time, he showed me a 10" scar across his belly from a table saw incident.

Shapers scared me more when I was working at the shop.

Let me ad this: Don't iron your shirt stark naked in front of the ironing board. It is possible to burn your Johnson. As me how I know!

You got that right, every time I heard that industrial shaper crank up it got my attention. Swinging a large cutter just scared me.

For most of the last 25 years I've used a table saw several times a week, sometimes for hours on end. I've been hit just below the belt, but above my johnson one time; one of the few times I was not standing off center. Turned me black and blue all the way to the tip.

Man was that ugly but that's not all. Try explaining it to your wife. :eek:

The guy in the video was extremely fortunate he didn't lose most of his hand. I'm fortunate as well because I've had a few close calls. What's worse is that nowadays I don't use my power tools too much. Contrary to what you might think, that frequent use might breed carelessness, it's more of the opposite.

These days I have to go over safety with myself before I fire a tool up. I have to force myself to think about and remember what can happen. That saw don't care how many years of experience you have.

I disagree with this. SawStop originally tried to invent a product that could be adapted to already produced table saws, but none of the makers would go for it. The three owners of SawStop then decided to make their own table saw with safety device. That was 2005. Europe once again, is far ahead of us with table saw safety. They created laws back in the 90's dealing with mandatory riving knife and other devices to minimize risk.

My dad has a SawStop and has triggered it twice, though neither was because of direct contact. It had to do with a aluminum miter-gauge and failing to readjust the fence as the angle was changed. The saw worked as advertised and as far as I know, the saw blade was sent back to Forrest and they were able to straighten and resharpen the blade and is still in use today.

I'm all for America and the freedom, but it's time to make the industry safer and if laws need to be created to do so, then so be it.

There was a good article on table saw accidents and a timeline of when certain safety features were introduced both here and Europe. The complete article does not seem to be online, but here are two smaller articles that talk a little about it. I will try and scan the timeline from the article later.

Tablesaw Safety Goes Under the Microscope--Again - Fine Woodworking

More Details on the Carlos Osorio Tablesaw Lawsuit - Fine Woodworking

I also have a feeling safety devices would save a lot of people money in the long run as well. About 38,000 accidents a year on table saws alone. The lawsuits that come out of these accidents cost millions.

Table Saw Accident Stories and Statistics

I'm all for safety too. If the overhead guard and the knife were quick change, I'd use them. But all too often I'm using a dado or making shallow cuts not all the way through the material. In these cases both devices are unable to be used.

Since I use my dads shop, I use his settings. His SawStop is setup with the riving knife, but the anti-kickback/overhead guard hangs on the side of the saw, in the way of the door to get to the guts. He and I rarely use a dado blade, but when we do, the riving knife does have to come off, but is put when a normal knife is put back on. You have made the choice, based on time and effort, to keep even more safety features off your saw. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. It's how it should be. You get to make your own decisions.

But... I also think that the manufacture should put as many safety devices as feasible. The SawStop has a way of disabling the cartridge that stops and retracts the saw blade. There are some materials that will transmit the signal from the blade to your hand, tripping the system.

I did not pay for the SawStop that I use, so I can't feel the wallet impact (cost of the saw). But I do feel a lot safer around it, than the old Delta. I do know that more than likely, if my finger does go into the blade, the most I may need are a few stitches or a bandaid. Both are very cheap compared to losing digits and a possible career.

Here's the complete article from Fine Woodworking. Great mag btw, for those that make furniture. The article has a piece on a lawsuit that stemmed from a kickback accident.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329542659.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329542718.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329542736.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329542752.jpg

I suppose I can put a pdf together if anyone can't read the above and wants to.

I have a 1 1/4" eight hp shaper. The sound it makes is scary with a big knifes in there. I am a big chicken. I duck below the table every time I have a change of knife before I turn it on the first time.

That guy in the demo is freaking nuts. Holy siht. I taught High School Woodshop for a bit. Where was this video when I needed it.

slodave - No disrespect for those wishing to have a 'Sawstop' saw or device like it. I said, I don't like an inventor telling the government that every manufacturer should have this. I've researched the story and facts. You should read the Ryobi side of it and all the others. Mr. S. Gass IS FIRST a patent lawyer, knows the marketing and game of law very well. Its his or any others choice to stand on their soapbox and shout that his product should be the rule of law, but I happen to disagree with that. The manufacturers told him to back down a bit as they have other ideas too but if they were to go forward with them, it opens a lawyers orgasm of litigation. So, instead, Mr. Gass starts building saws. Good for him and I'm sure he's got a fine product for some users... not all.

Let the people decide and keep the lawyers out of it. If you don't like a table saw or not comfortable operating one... or any machine, simply don't use it. I've run 5 hp sliding table saws for cabinet making and its the best damn saw next to sliced cheese but seriously, most think they are so safe because the operator is far away from the blade and the body off to the side. If you don't know what your doing, that saw will almost seem pneumatically lift a sheet stock and could cause all sorts of havoc. Maybe some readers here are not familiar with this type but it is a european evolved saw. You have to know the machine and stock otherwise blame yourself if all hell breaks loose - not the maker, not the machine, not the lawyer.

I also completely respect the fact of hobbiest woodworkers or weekend warriors not always around machines or properly educated of them. Its ONE choice to buy a Sawstop but I hope the law doesn't force it on me. Also, a professional woodworker is expected to know proper and safe skills and the machine. I'm also running 60 year old table saws and love them.

That guy in the video indeed is making a point but at a high risk, which he clearly admitted and using as a warning to others. Although he doesn't seem to admit why his behaviour of letting up pressure or perhaps turned the leading edge to the blade which by common sense should always be edge pressured towards the properly adjusted parallel fence. Thats someone with supposable knowledge around a saw shouldn't do. He should eleborate what technique he was doing and where he failed. He didn't. He could have gone further, encourage large push sticks AND proper use of them and so forth. If he's touting riving knives, he might as well discussed the value of further safety equioement like zero clearance table inserts or your Sawstop. It seems to me he's blaming the machine... which leads to blaming someone else... having lawyers involved... and we have the same old song. Be safe and have fun.

For the record, I'm not saying that "SawStop" should be the the only saw available. I just think that as technology moves forward and if there are ways to cut down or prevent accidents, we'd all be better off. Why is that a bad thing? SawStop is just the only commercially available product at the moment and happens to work.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329548753.jpg

So, from your above photo, it seems like even if some sort of safety device could prevent accidents, eff it, lets live on the wild side anyway. That's short sighted.

How about installing the features and let you decide what to disable? That's how it works now.

agree with you. BAck to the sliding table saw. Most people get in trouble with that kind of machine is because they do not hold the stock up against the cross cut fence while cutting and goes the piece flying. Its not a little table saw, so ripping should be done on a traditional table saw like a Oliver or Powermatic. I have a Altendrof 90. An older 10 hp saw. I really like to have a CNC machine now, but I can always pay someone to do all that if we were that busy. I am tired of cutting panels.

The reason why its a bad thing is the lawyers make it the bad thing. Figure the increase cost to the manufacturer, to the buyer, lawsuits onto someone who sells a used saw without a device and the next owner is injured, opens Pandora box by makers admitting guilt of knowing of the technology and prior injuries caused because they didn't have it.... on and on. Cost to business owners. Have to replace every tablesaw in every business / shop and must throw away and destroy every perfectly working old saw. Where does is stop? Your scroll saw with a cast iron guard around it and operated by closed circuit TV? Its bad because Steve Gass wants it a law. Let it be the buyers choice.

Do I want ABS on my 3.2 911? Nope. Do nerf bumpers on the 3.2 make it any safer? Nope. The lawyers of the insurance companies made the DOT (GOV) claim the cost of damage would be far less if we had 5 mph impact bumpers... thats why.

What's being proposed is to create better safety around these devices. Like everything else that has happened in the industry it would be phased in. No one is forcing you to immediately junk your old saw(s) and buy a new one(s). Saws sold from a specific date in the future would have advanced safety systems installed.

This happens all over the place. Are we better off with wood skis, bear trap bindings, and leather boots? Hell no! I can find all that stuff in my size, though the ski hills would probably not let me on the chair and for good reason.

Lawyers, lawyers, lawyers. That argument doesn't work. My dad is a retired one and sees no issue with installing safety devices if they work.

One more thing... My dad is a hobbyist, so am I. He has been doing this for a very long time as a hobby, even built two room additions on the family home. No digits missing. I worked in a cabinet shop, building mostly high end, custom kitchen cabinets. My boss was missing part of one thumb and did some nice damage to the other one shortly before I started.

Holy carp. Is that an old Shopsmith? That's nuts. What wrong with a skill saw ans a guide?

My dad had a Shopsmith but I don't remember ever using it in the vertical position to cut panels that does look dangerous. Looks like the blade is right at chest/throat level :eek: I have mixed feelings about government involvement on power tools. One side of the issue is that safer power tools could help save major injuries or possibly a life. On the other side the safety measures might be so intrusive that it makes the tool/s harder to use and force the person to remove them which defeats the process. I will not be buying any major power tools in my lifetime because I have basically everything I want/need and they are old school tools built to last so really not an issue to me. However my own safety is a concern and like others have stated I mentally go over what could go wrong before I fire up each machine to hopefully insure my safety. Be smart out there guys. SmileWavy

Power planers scare me. I had a finger tip avulsed by one. THAT is one scary cutter.

Slodave - Even Fine Woodworking has a cynical Stephen Colbert clip about Mr. Gass of Sawstop. We all get it about Sawstop and you as an individual having one appreciates it for your application and working environment. But I don't think your getting it. Like I said, this guy is forceing his invention / device onto others by pushing the law. If he gets his way, it only takes one precedent case against a saw company, individual or other and prior to the Sawstop to get 'hammered' (pun) by the law. If that law were to pass, absolutely would one be liable for selling a used table saw to another individual. You can't sell specific deemed unsafe baby seats by law so you can bet it would be the same with table saws and onto the next power tool. Do people want that? You have to draw the line of law vs, ones common sense. Its absolute goofy litigation in this country. Take as an example Illinois. Duh... lets allow motorcycles and oh, let them ride without helmets, ah ha, let me think Mr. Legislate eye protection should be required... no glasses mind you but a teeny windscreen on a sport bike is legal. But wait, we must ticket and fine an occupant in the rear seat of a car for not wearing a seatbelt!

Read the back of your owners manual on that Sawstop and the - no guarantee of preventing an accident. This guy Gass covered his @ss but also knows eventually someone will defeat the device or rig-it inop. Hey, thats fine but lets keep the law away from this.

Stephen Colbert Takes the Sizzle Out of SawStop - videos - Fine Woodworking

I do get it.

I also get the modern technology can help prevent accidents.

I also know what the back of the manual says as well as the back of the manual of my cars. I can also see the difference in thickness between my two cars and even though the Toyota is a lot newer than my 911, it's still a base model with very few bells and whistles, yet the manual is about 3x as thick. A lot of that is because of the lawyers and needing to put more and more legal-ease to cut down on lawsuits.

I already mentioned that the SawStop safety feature can be disabled. It has to, since certain materials can act as a conduit between you and the saw, tripping the device. If someone had one of these saws and decided to disable the device from day one and eventually has an accident and sues, saying the device did not work as advertised. When the investigation reveals that he disabled the device, the lawsuit isn't going to go very far.

Where is it that the proposed law is going to force owners of current saws to trash them and buy new ones. As far as I know, it doesn't. As it is, manufacturers are required to provide riving knives, anti-kickback devices as well as a blade guard. Are they fixed? No, you can remove them as soon as you take the saw out of the box. Will removing the devices limit the manufacturers liability, you bet.

BTW, no one has forced you to recycle your 911 because it is old technology and does not have airbags, anti-lock brakes, etc. If my Toyota had anti-lock brakes, I bet the minor fender bender I got into a couple of months ago would not have happened. All I needed was 2" to miss the rear bumper, but since I was hydroplaning with locked up brakes.

Its all in good debate and respect but as a matter of fact there's many lawsuits - thousands - about products and personal injury, and long after new models are out with safety implements. Who or what business owner wants to risk fighting a lawsuit... frivolous or not? Remember in the 1980's the FEDERAL ban on the sale of 3 wheel ATV's? This included between private sales, meaning it was illegal for a private individual to resell it. The same goes for the all the little kids motorized ATV's that was the rage about 6 years ago. I know dealers who were stuck with hundreds of them. I've lost track on the law but might have been overturned (pun).

Another case that stole millions from farm equipment dealers and manufacturers was in the 1980's. The ROPS (roll over protection structure) became a requirement for Ag and industrial equipment and tractors. So, Kubota begins to sell its tractors with the ROPS per law. Most buyers were upset at this especially if they had low clearance problems, around tree limbs when mowing or at tree nurserys, etc. and they removed them. A lawsuit happened upon where everyone was hit. The prior owner traded a tractor back in without the ROPS. Dealer sells the trade. Buyer of the trade-in uses tractor and eventually sells to a neighbor. Neighbor has a fatal rollover. Survivor wife sues... pitbull lawyer nails everyone as liable and wins millions. Nowadays, the makers have a flip down ROPS for those 'low clearance' needs... hmmm. By the way, that was a precedent case and soon other rollover suits followed. A bill went so far as requiring ROPS for all tractors retroactive and all the way back to antiques. Thank goodness some legislators came to their senses and a grandfathered law of older tractors are excempt. But fast forward today and its almost forgotten as private sales between others without ROPS protection is common.

Cabinet shops are of two thoughts right now - fear of lawsuit and will buy a Sawstop OR wait until the sawdust settles. Large and more efficient shops won't bother with a small tablesaw anyways but if it becomes law, these shops will have to eat their old machine to the junk heap, meaning not available for sale on the secondary market as they would become liable if resold and someone is injured. Enjoy your woodworking the sawstop and work smart.

I rode one off the side of a mountain. :)