Life: Do you do just enough to get by, or push hard?

[72doug2,2S]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Why do people "need" to outshine others? Why the "need" to always be or have the best? Is it ego? Self esteem? Narcissism?

I don't know if this is about who can pee higher on the tree, but our drive to excel goes deep.

IMO, it goes to who we are in creation. We are meant to be more than we currently are, so there is an innate desire to transcend the norm (the limited you) into something larger than we actually are.

This is one of the reasons we like to identify ourselves with something bigger than ourselves. like, a baseball team, a political power group, a community group, a music band, a philosophical movement, etc.

We all want to be part of something larger than we actually are. So we have drive.

[VINMAN]

Ive just never been a competitive person. Always just did what i needed to satisfy myself, and to get by in life Sure everyone likes to be the winner, but if I lost at something, oh well... I wouldn't beat my head against the wall over it.
Sure there was one point in my life i had visions of grandeur, Where i thought being, having the best was the most important thing. But I grew out of that.
When i became a fireman, it hugely changed my outllook on life. Nonsense i always thought was important, or immpressive, meant nothing to me anymore after seeing families lose everything they had in their lives. Or seeing, a HS senior and his three friends on the way home from school, burn to death in his $50,000 car his parents bought him. I started realizing, What good is it driving yourself crazy, stressing out, busting your ass, for a material possesion or some kind of "prestigous goal". When you or it can be gone in a flash.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I've got a good friend who can't recognize this difference and apply his genius where it would pay off the most. He's one of the most talented drummers you'll ever see. There is nothing he can't play and play perfectly. He plays in two tribute bands, one a Dave Matthews and the other a Rush tribute band - not bubble gum drumming music. He will literally spend hours getting the tiniest detail perfect, sometimes staying up all night with headphones on to the point he can barely function the next day. Yet, he's barely above homelessness. He couldn't bring himself to do the bare minimum required of him at the last good job he had and has not been able to get back on his feet in two years. It's terrible to watch such talent wasted.

but does he care?

Here is a cultural reference for you:
there are all these old stories about the "janitors" in Chinese bldgs. long ago -- they are the (elderly?) martial arts masters, who don't care about anything else & the job let's them get by with little extraneous input, and the mop is a stick...

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Why do people "need" to outshine others? Why the "need" to always be or have the best? Is it ego? Self esteem? Narcissism?

I am biased by my main area of research, but Id bet money some level of competition is innate. We see it in other animals also.

Some have claimed that competition for money, high-paying jobs and even artistic output are essentially advertisements for yourself to paraphrase Norman Mailer.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by motion

Vinny, in my case, its guilt. Its mostly related to how I was raised (poor). I need to get my thoughts together and write more later tonight.

That's the same as with me. Being raised poor certainly has some advantages, as far as putting drive into someone.

It's one of the things I worry about with my kids. They don't have the benefit of being raised poor, or of truly seeing that side (the only way to really see it is to live it).

They are ultra high achievers. They've accomplished far more than I did at their age. Their grades are higher, they have musical skills and training that I would have never dreamed of, they've traveled the world (I don't think I had ever been in an elevator before the age of 12, much less an airplane), they compete at a national level in their sports, etc.

But, they do that because it's for the most part put in front of them, and they are good kids with some talents, and we make it fun for them.

What I worry about is whether they really have the *fire* that I had has a teenager, and in my 20s and 30s. The internal self motivation. Because I can tell you, the things that drove me, relentlessly, through my late teens through 30s, they simply will not have. Those fears are completely foreign to them. Some other motivator will have to move them. Not sure what that will be.

But back to your point, *guilt*, that's been a huge motivator for me, too. My parents were (and are) very self-less. They live for their kids. My dad worked insane hours, in the early years at a pretty crappy job, all for us. They paid all tuition, for all kids, for any education we wanted, which went through college and many years of graduate schools, all through school we had bank accounts that always had money put in them, we all had summer jobs or internships that were based on our interests (not on whether they paid or not), etc.

They never put any strings on any of it, and for that incredible trust and sacrifice, I always felt like I just could not let them down. They only had high school educations, so their dream was to have educated kids. That drove me to fight, basically from a working class, uneducated neighborhood (ghetto is probably a little bit of an overstatement, but not too much), eventually to an Ivy League education (of which my parents are very proud) and to a decade + career at a couple of very prestigious international firms (of which they are also proud).

Amazingly, that motivating force had an impact on my up to maybe my early 40s! Certainly late 30s. What a mamma's boy.

But after a 20+ year career, 20 years of successful marriage, raising my own kids through their teen years so far, earning and saving a decent amount of money using the degrees they paid for, paying off my house, etc. I eventually (finally) came to a point where I felt like I'd "repaid" whatever I owed to them, as far as achievements.


So that's helped me to back off. Also, my main focus is on my kids, and doing what is best for them, and that by necessity includes being in a position to spend a lot of time with them (I doubt many dads spend more hours per week with their kid than I do, I don't know of any).

What's also helped me back off, and be willing to accept some "mediocrity" as far as "achievements" is getting to an age where people start dying off. That can really change your perspective on life, what's really important in life, and perhaps give some clarity on some wiser ways to spend the short time we have.

[azasadny]

I always try to so the best I possibly can at any task or challenge to satisfy that little voice in me that says "you can do better, do it!"...

[Kraqus]

I think you need to have Goals, both long term and Short term.
This way you set the Bar in your life and then occupy yourself trying to achieve them.
Some people set their goals higher than other.....Why? I don't know.

My Long term goal is very ambitious....I want to open my own business.
My Short term goals are MANY and I execute them all as if my life depended on it.
Why do I do that? Because I get a deep self-gratifying feeling when I am done.
The same exact feeling I get when I do good deeds towards other Human beings.

Please do not misunderstand this with Narcissism because is FAR from it.
I don't tell anyone about my goals or brag about anything I have accomplished in life.
I actually shun away from it.

Maybe is has something to do with my rough upbringings.
I was the kid that did not have a Bike when all the other kids did,
and when I finally got one (far from best) I went on to Pedal twice as hard.

I also do not believe in Materialism.
I am NOT my house, nor my car, or my Job (titles?)...because if I lose those....I STILL AM.
I can seriously lose everything I got and I will gladly start over again.

I do not believe in Welfare of any kind.
I believe anyone can accomplish great things with some effort....you just need to try.

I thank God every night for the things I was allowed to accomplish during the day.
And Before I step out of bed, the next day, I thank God again for giving me another opportunity.
I am extremely grateful for everything I have been given.....specially Health.






Benny

[Brian in VA]

Hey guys thanks for the kind input. RWebb, I've been out 2+ years, general/laparoscopic surgery. I think I've always leaned this way but training, the culture, and a long line of mentors with no other life cemented it. I'm going to double my efforts to chill out sometimes, and the pcar is a big step in that direction..man I love tinkering with it and driving.

Anyway, very cool thread, another example of why I love pp and ppot.

[RWebb]

I have a friend who is pulling out of his gen'l surg. practice to be a wine grape grower (he was released into the wild long ago however). My advice is to pay off those loans, and get a good hobby while avoiding being a work-a-holic.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by nostatic

One of my goals is to always be young enough at heart to let music have a profound effect on me. If I can do that, much of the rest will take care of itself.

Yeah, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. As I get older, my cynicism can sometimes get in the way of letting in something really important. But at the same time you gotta open the door sometimes. I've been listening to that song a lot today, since I posted it last night, and it still really has a lot of meaning for me. I was carrying my fast-asleep daughter back to bed last night when the chorus popped into my head. Bit of a meaningful moment.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Being raised poor certainly has some advantages, as far as putting drive into someone.

It's one of the things I worry about with my kids. They don't have the benefit of being raised poor, or of truly seeing that side (the only way to really see it is to live it).

........

What I worry about is whether they really have the *fire* that I had has a teenager, and in my 20s and 30s. The internal self motivation. Because I can tell you, the things that drove me, relentlessly, through my late teens through 30s, they simply will not have. Those fears are completely foreign to them. Some other motivator will have to move them. Not sure what that will be.

I've thought a lot about this over the last few years. It seems to me my parents' generation (boomers) wanted the best for their kids, like all generations before them, however were perhaps the first generation to actually be able to provide it. But the unintended consequence of it is that my generation never really knew hardship. I didn't grow up poor, I didn't have to walk uphill in the snow both ways, in fact my mother drove me to private school until grade 4. Are there more slackers in my generation than my parents'? I doubt it. Certainly my generation is poised to take the world to heights it's never dreamed of, but that might just be the general trajectory of progress.

I don't have an answer, or really even a point, except that it can get frustrating that the boomer generation worked so hard to create a good world for their kids, and now that their kids have it, they seem resentful.

[Aggie93]

I’ve been thinking about this and the close derivatives of the question. Once I’m interested in something, I push hard - at least by my definition. But do just enough on other endeavors. I have found that I can only push hard on one or two (for a limited time) fronts. I have noticed when I push hard on two, it is to the detriment of something. I coasted through high school and most of college, not sure what my focus was besides girls and having fun. Once I started studying the topics in my major, I gave it all my all - sometimes to the detriment of other subjects.

This continued into my job after college and the focus of my effort for the past seventeen years has been my job. Soon after I started working, i went to a speech given by a prominent person in the industry. I still remember him saying that this is not a good industry for marriages. He didn’t think you could devote enough effort that was required to be successful and maintain a marriage. While, I went at it pretty hard by my definition. It would have been just enough to get by to him. My marriage didn’t fail, but I also didn’t develop many outside interest. For a long time I viewed my job as my hobby and Twain’s “the secret of success is making your vocation your vacation” quote really applied.

A few years ago, the company I worked for was acquired and I moved to the acquiring company. I went from working for a small company to a large one overnight. It is amazing the difference between the two, even though I’m still working on the same product. Granted it is a small sample size, but I think it is an interesting case study between different types of firms. I noticed a distinct difference between the effort people here give versus the old smaller firm. Additionally, I have found my effort slacking compared to what it was.

The compensation structure is important and has likely had an influence (bonus structure went from personal contribution determined by the owner, to a formula based on how the group did without any personal recognition), but the main driver is lack of meaningful impact. People that like to excel want to have an impact. I went from having an important say in just about everything at the old small company to having very limited say and what I do have influence over will not move the needle

Now that I find myself “coasting” I’m looking for other ways to be productive. My wife does a fantastic job running the house and I find I “get in the way” when I try to help out. Instead, I’ve been doing household projects that needed to be done (had to move with job change). I also started helping coach my daughter’s soccer team and got roped into performing in my other daughter’s ballet recital - sorry no pictures. I bought an older Porsche as a hobby car so I can work on it besides drive it. For the past ten years, I’ve had a book idea in my head. Last week, I started researching the process of writing. I suck at writing,

In closing, I view the amount of effort I can devote a constant, but prioritize the effort given to different aspects. If there are two things I’m using up my “effort bank”, there is something I’m neglecting. Now that I have a family, there are very few times that I’m giving my all to two separate endeavors. While it feels like I’m coasting, my job will still be the one thing that most of my effort will go toward. I’m still logging in 50-55 hours a week, but I’m not been putting in the hours at night or on the weekends that I used to. Realistically, i’m in between pushing hard and just getting by. The past year, I’ve taken a more measured approach lately and have spread myself thinner and broader. Looking back, I think I pushed at the right time and lifted at the right times. Now, I look forward to lifting a little more - except in corners.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Lots of things worth doing (or have to be done) are not worth doing well. In fact, probably most of the things we do in our daily lives are not worth doing well (if by "well" you mean with 100% of your effort or capacity).

The trick is (1) to get it done in a way that works and is acceptable, (2) and to be able to recognize the times when things really do need to be done 100%, and do them 100% in those instance.

Wise words.

In general, things that are "worth doing" are worth doing well but not always. I may have given an incorrect answer in the beginning of the thread because I am a bit of a perfectionist and OCD sufferer. It has allowed me to do some high-level work in certain endeavors but has also crippled me at times. The more effective people I know are not burdened with OCD at all. They know exactly when to focus intensely and when to jettison excess baggage...when to cut bait. Any type of obsessive behavior narrows one's focus and blurs the "big picture", then father time sodomises you while you plan on spending time with your kids or seeing the world "some day". Years and decades disappear down a rabbit hole while you perfect something in your mind.

The idea of competing with other men who also do not understand this is the worst use of time on this earth I can imagine. At the same time, everyone should get past their own barriers that keep them from having the fullest life possible. It's a conundrum, I won't lie.

[exc911ence]

Since I value my free time more than anything else these days, I tend to do as little as I possibly can while still maintaining a way of life that is comfortable for myself and my family. Of course, our "comfortable" is likely way lower than most around here.

I've chosen to avoid competition for most of my life as I believe it truly brings out the worst in people. There's nothing like a me-first attitude to lower the perceived worth of those around you.

“It is better to want what you have, than to have what you want.”

[Zeke]

Aggie, you don't "suck" at writing.

[RWebb]

You can give kids some of the benefits of being raised poor, or of truly seeing that side, by making them do chores, making them work to earn money for something, and making them volunteer in soup kitchens, etc.

[Aurel]

Since people are not equal, one ordinary person pushing hard may achieve less than one talented person just getting by. Therefore, the answer to the question is entirely relative.

[motion]

I didn't want the topic to be about accomplishments or achievements... you are right, they are too subjective. Rather, it was intended to be about effort. Trying to hit that sweet spot