How to hande a counter offer?
 

I have an aggressive recruiter on me and one of the positions he wants me to apply for sounds promising. The other one is with a competitor, which I think is an unhealthy company and liable to be bought out by ours. Even if I broke the non-compete and current employer left me alone, I'd be in trouble if current employer buys them out.

Anyway, I have an interview with another place, totally outside my current line of work, but still in sales and with much, much more earning potential, even about 40% more of a base salary.

The recruiter just sent me a bunch of PDFs on how to resign and why to never entertain a counter offer. He wrote in the email that, if I would even consider a counter offer from my current employer, to call him right away. I find this a little troubling.

About 10 yrs. ago I took a great counter offer when I went to quit, it worked very well for me and I still work for the same guy. Although we're owned by a much larger company now, I have no reason to think he'd not make an attractive counter offer in good faith and not view me as a traitor if I were to accept.

I know this is all premature, but just wanted to know how the Pelican brain trust sees this stuff, as things could get moving quickly after tomorrow and I have a three week trip to Europe coming up soon too.

The recruiter is no doubt trying to protect his commission by saying to NEVER accept a counter offer, accepting one makes HIM nothing but it does improve your pay.

''The other one is with a competitor, which I think is an unhealthy company and liable to be bought out by ours. Even if I broke the non-compete and current employer left me alone, I'd be in trouble if current employer buys them out. ''

offer to go there a be a ''spy'' for your current gig
so if bought out your a hero

recruiter gets paid to place YOU
not get you a better / best deal

really he is a salesman
your raise is not a commission for HIM

Do a search too, this subject has come up many times.

I think it's probably a crap shoot. I think accepting could work out well (obviously based on your first hand exp), but I think it could also work out poorly in certain circumstances.

As stated, I'm sure the headhunter is protecting his rep and commission.

Yep. Being in sales yourself I'd think you'd see right through this. The recruiter doesn't care about you - he's simply looking to ink a deal, collect his percentage and move on. Getting caught in the middle of negotiations that benefit you don't work to his advantage (quite the opposite possibly) so he's trying to shove you into doing something for his benefit. I'd tell him you need time to think about it and at the end of the day YOU (not he) will be calling the shots.

I can't stand pushy salespeople and have little tolerance for them. Recruiters included.

Of course, I know the recruiter is protecting his commission check. Why should he be looking out for me when I'm not the one paying him? I totally get that and have no problem with it. But the PDF he sent on why to never accept a counter does make some good points.

When I played this game about 10 yrs. ago and won, it was a very small company where I had constant access to the top people whose offices were a few ft. from my own. These days it's a big company with a lot of departments and politics scattered around the world, constant shifts in direction and leadership goals and not such a well-oiled machine as where the boss and I once were.

I'm sure my boss has authority to offer what it'd take to get me to stay and he'd not be personally offended or view me as a traitor. But what happens if he leaves or gets promoted to a different role? I know he's protected several of us on his team from getting laid off or fired in the past. I personally think my boss's boss will be fired in the near future. So I'm not too worried about him. I'm just worried about how long I'd be dependent on my boss's protection after threatening to leave to get a good counter. And let's face it - that's what it is. I've asked for raises before and been stalled. If I say I'm leaving, I know he'll take it seriously and want to counter.

What are some of the valid points on the PDF's?

And FWIW, I also believe that PD is nothing more than him trying to protect his commission.

IMHO in 90% of all cases a counter is only given for damage control. The minute you accept the counter, they will start looking for your replacement. They know you are unreliable and at a minimum, you may be damaged goods in the future if it comes to promotions and added responsibilities. I have witnessed many cases when people were playing the counter game and fell on their nose very hard down the line with it.

Of course you can't generalize and have to take into account your situation. I also think it depends if you entertain a counter or are actively fishing for it. Absolutely don't fish or ask for it.

HTH?

Good Luck!

G

Before I even opened the PDF, the recruiter's email note "If you would consider a counter offer....STOP NOW and call me." sort of caught my eye. Obviously, he doesn't want to put his credibility with his client on the line if he thinks I could just be looking for leverage to use for a counter. Another PDF he sent explains how to submit one's resignation, to make it firm, short, sweet and, again very firm..... probably to kill any thoughts of a counter. Does he think I've never quit a job before?

The PDF on counters lists a few anonymous anecdotes where someone took a counter and then was first to be let go as soon as a merger or mgt. shakeup happened. It goes on to say how treacherous you could be viewed by your mgr., blah, blah. It's almost obnoxious, but I understand where the recruiter is coming from. Honestly, unless this job sounds like a home run, I might use the offer (if I get one) to get a counter out of my boss. That's just how he rolls. He'll never ever come to one of us and say, "I think you deserve a raise or a promotion." You only get it from him if he thinks you're serious about leaving. I'd rather not play this game, but that's how he rolls. He probably also knows I'm pretty happy working from home and making decent money for AZ, which isn't a great job market.

As a hiring manager I never recommend a counter offer. If you're unhappy working for me you need to go. As for myself I'ne never accepted a counter offer, Once I decide to go, I'm gone.

The problem is that I'm very happy in my job except for the fact that it's never going to pay more than I'm making and I have to bring in 15-18% more revenue each year to make the same money I made the previous year. There's no income growth potential here. Otherwise, I love the job, the co-workers and the customers.

My boss's revenue quotas for our team do not change because he loses people. He's currently covering for another team member out on maternity leave and another two team members (who are married to each other) are looking to transfer back to the midwest where they have family before she has her baby. So the last thing in the world my boss needs right now is for someone who's fully up and running and currently far exceeding his revenue goals for the year to want to leave. I'm in a very good spot to get a generous counter IF I have really have another good job to go to. I would never give anything like an ultimatum I wasn't prepared to lose. And I wouldn't ask for a counter either.

Well, he may have no chance other than to counter. But how will it make him feel? ;)

G

It'll make him feel a lot better than losing a valuable member of his team and then having to start the hiring, training and ramping up process again will. It's not like I'm getting to pick when these opportunities fall into my lap and my personal career and financial goals revolve around his personnel situation.

I would feel blackmailed. But I am also someone that puts in for raises for employees. You probably know the situation better. This isn't the same guy from 10 years ago, is it?

G

Yes, it's the same boss I've had since 2001. The last raise I got was when we were bought out by our biggest competitor in late 2006. I started pushing for one in Jan. 2011 and was told it would be dependent on our new(est) review process, which, of course, didn't shake out until Sept. No raises for anyone, just some more incentives if you made your annual goal, which almost no one does and is 15-18% higher each year than the previous one. Oh, and we weren't even told our 2011 goals until end of March 2011.

This is the same boss I did get a great counter out of around 2002-03 when I went to give my notice after having another better paying job offer fall into my lap and not making close to what my boss said I'd make if I was any good (and always doubled my quotas).

My frustration here is that there is no way to make serious money in this position. Just about every account manager who blows out his/her goal leaves the following year because they have to do that well plus 15-18% the next year just to get back to 100% of goal. It's nearly impossible and it drives away the best performers. It's sad to say that I'm really better off longterm by always finishing just below goal.

That actually sounds like you DO need to find a new job. I always thought the advantage in sales was that your upside potential was much higher than in most other jobs.

G

Isnt that pretty much the same no matter where you are? I ran into similar issues, comp plan is never there to pay you more $$.

You've been there a long time, time to get hungry again and plant your flag somewhere else?

Good luck.

I don't know. I have worked here too long. In past commissioned sales jobs, "your review was your W2." There wasn't really a quota, but you couldn't survive long on no base salary if you weren't closing deals all the time. Seems to me, if you're bringing in $200k plus in new revenue (above last year's full goal) year after year, you should see some reward for that.

Having staff headhunted/poached out from a team is quite a different story from team members who go looking for new opportunities and using that to leverage a raise.

As an employer, if one of my team came to me and said he had been approached by xxx offering 18% more to go work for them, I'd look into it and review the rates we pay compared to the market etc. If it was a valuable member, I'd do what I could to keep them. Happy employees don't often go looking.

However, if they did it off their own bat, then I'd wish them well and send them on their way. Chances are that the reason they were not happy was not the pay level - it just made it more bearable.

Best of luck - I hope it works out for you.

Tim

40% more of a base salary, that would clinch the deal for me, I've had counter offers before and never took them. My thought was if I'm such a valued person then why did it take my quitting to show this, thanks but no thanks.
I had a contract once and was told that the client was going to steal one of my employee's, these guys were kinda laughing about it, "ya we're gonna take Godfrey away from you, we're going to pay him 100/day (this is the 3rd world and 100/day is 4 times the average) I told them they could try but I don't think its going to happen cause I pay him 200/day. their smiles were gone and we were the ones laughing. 12 years later Godfrey still works for me at 325/day, he makes the yearly average for wages every month, he's not going anywhere.
Money talks, I'd jump all over that 40% increase in a heartbeat.
Finn

But I'm not unhappy there, I have asked for raises before and I always bring in more revenue each year than I did in the previous one. Still, my income is flat at best, W2'ed a little less last year than in 2010. They simply will not pay more unless threatened with someone leaving. As I said, this recruiter also has a position with a competitor, one that pays considerably more than I'm making now. I know we've hired others away from this competitor who were making far less, so I'm skeptical. But I'm really getting the feeling that, for the amount of revenue I handle, my pay is about 50% too low. And even if it's not, I need to be somewhere with a realistic chance of making more each year when I bring in more each year.

The current "incentive" is that we get a larger % of revenue cut after we've met our goal for the year. But only a small handful of people do that and that's usually in Nov. or Dec., so it's no incentive at all until you already know you're gonna make it.

Let them know what you want. You'll have to decide how to let them know you might be getting another offer, and that it may or may not be a sound offer, but they are not the only place that will employ you. Point out your loyalty to the company, history, and experience as a way to explain to them your worth.

Well, it's kind of dicey to play this game without a firm offer in hand and once that happens, the clock is ticking and everyone is playing for keeps. Today's interview is probably the first of several and I'm not even sure it's a line of work I'm interested in. But then I wouldn't mind getting out my comfort zone again and having some serious earning opportunity. Not working from home would be tough, though it's not a long commute to this new place.

The sad thing, and it'd be very hard to get these words out of my mouth, is that I'm actually worth more to my company for always being just under 100% of goal, which I am. I'm not trying to spin underperformance, but it's just a fact that no account manager here has two great consecutive years. The goals and commission structure make that impossible. If someone finishes at 140% of goal, they'll either have a terrible next year (because they'll have to do that plus 15-18% just to get to 100% again - i.e. lower pay, more work), or they'll take their plaque, go to President's Club and then find a better job while they still have a great track record to show off to other prospective employers.

Replacing such a person takes a solid year IF they hire the right person right away. I think senior mgt. knows it's a good gig to work from home, see your boss maybe twice a year, make your own schedule and make a decent living. That's a tough gig to replace in this economy. The reward for finishing just under 100% of goal is having pretty steady goals year after year, a pretty steady paycheck and a secure job. I don't see anyone currently at the company changing that.

By the time I'm looking for a new job, a counter offer doesn't even matter.

I should add that I'm only looking for a job because this one could go away at any time and it's best to look for a job when you don't really need to. I have a few friends who've been unemployed or underemployed for several years. The gaps in their resumes and atrophying job skills make them very difficult to re-employ.

Is there any chance they would hear your concerns about the structure they have? It seems like if you see the problems with "last year +15-18%" then other people probably have also. Maybe something could be worked out. I can't imagine management doesn't known there is a problem (though we are talking about management) but maybe they don't know how bad it really is.

Sure, I can bring that up and it might be discussed and hemmed and hawed over for another nine mos. before changing. The SVP of sales (my boss's boss) spent six figures last year on a consultant to revamp our comp structure and goals, and - surprise - they kept things the same (though didn't reveal this until end of Q1 2011), raised the goals and the only new incentives offered come at the end of the year for those who exceed their goal for the year before 12/31. No one gets there before Nov. or Dec. So no one gets a dime more in commissions before then and very few get there at all, maybe 10% of the sales force.

I should have brought this up when my boss was with me in LA two weeks ago, but I had nothing to use as leverage at that time. I still don't, but suspect I may soon.

Ok, just got back from the first interview and was pretty much told I'd get asked back for the second one if I wanted. However, there will be no offer to elicit a counter out of my boss. This new place is mostly commission, which is fine and lucrative. But there's probably a difficult ramp-up period and I don't think I'm in a position to go through something like that again without feeling the fire in my belly, which I do not. I'd have to pass the Series 7 and 66 before they could pay me a dime and the good part is that I could do that while still at my current job and then give my two weeks notice once I'm certified. Still, not really feeling it.

Never hurts to listen what they have to say...good luck with the search if it continues

Sounds like the recruiter is a sleaze - how can he promise 40% base increase and then when you get there they tell you that they can't make an offer?

At any rate, I'd look at your motivation getting started: get your boss to counter. All you need is a job that's close enough where you don't get hosed when he calls your bluff.

I sure sometimes wonder how you do this stuff without worrying that someone from your work finds you on here? :D

G

I'm not doing anything remotely unethical by asking the Pelican brain trust. Honestly, if my boss read this, it'd probably be a good thing, though I won't be forwarding him the link;). My boss is not the paranoid type and he's certainly not a car bbs guy. Anyone else in the company, especially if they're on the sales side, would see this and agree with me. I've never heard another account manager say they liked our structure. But it's the best job a lot of us have. Many of us discuss this kind of stuff all the time on our own company instant messaging. (How was your March? Is the boss in the office today? How was your review? How's your pipeline? Did he yell at you over this or that?) I haven't written too much I'd be afraid to say to anyone in person. And I firmly believe I learn more from my co-workers than from mgt.

As I got out of the interview today, there was an email from the recruiter asking me how it went and reminding me to write a thank you note to the interviewer. Sheesh. I left him a vm about an hour later and he didn't call back. I'd kind of like to stay on his good side and not let him think I'm a tire kicker, as he could find some good leads for me and I would seriously consider leaving for the right gig. I just need a lot more selling on this one before I think it's worth leaving what I have behind.

I have been in IT sales for 17 years. The first 14 were with manufacturers. I know of what you speak when you have to perform 20 to 30 percent more each year to make the same W2. After year 3, you have to sell twice as much as year one to make the same amount, the last straw for me was working for a company that gave us new quotas every quarter. There was no incentive to overachieve at all, because you would be rewarded with a bigger quota the next quarter. If you are happy making your on target earnings, then just hang out and keep your head down. I don't know what business you are in, Rick, but I went to a smaller systems integrator 3 years ago on 100 percent commission with a known percentage of profit split every year. Last year I made 250% or my 2009 earnings. Risk/Reward.

I would so love for my job to be 100% commission, but the powers that be care far more about controlling everyone than letting them all do their own thing. I'm in the PR/news distribution biz, kind of a cottage industry and not many folks outside the biz have ever heard of it, though plenty of our clients' work has been posted here by others, usually in PARF.

That's what I do, but only because I haven't found a better gig yet. I keep applying jobs at the local Fender HQ, but nothing has come up for which I'm truly qualified on paper. I don't know if I could ever work another non-hobby job.

I have posted before, but I specifically requested 100 percent commission with my current gig. If I want to break my back, I will see tangible rewards. If I want to coast and enjoy my family, I make less. It's a good thing. My house is paid for and my daughters college is paid for and I am 44. For me, I want to pursue my bliss and not necessarily more money (which the gov takes half of my incremental earnings). As long as can save for retirement and watch my daughter grow up, I won't ever take another type of job (ok, never is a long time).

100% commission or 1099 will never ever happen at this job. My boss joked about it once, but he's powerless in that regard. Unthinkable. I'd love it, but I'm better off going elsewhere for that or starting something on the side, which I'd also love to do, but have no ideas and the secret wouldn't last long in this small industry.

I didn't like my job, so I bought out my boss, and I run the show. I now run several companies and work my ass off. A rational person explores options but the rare person actually takes action.

Well, if you have a spare $250 million to lend me, I could go that route too.

If you want to do it, then you'll find a way, trust me.

is it not obvious that the critical issue here is the parking discipline at the new place?