A really long story- if you've got any advice for me...

[preludeofwrath]

I've wanted a carrera (been literally obsessed) and missed a chance of a lifetime about 6 months ago. After scouring craigslist for a couple years, I chanced upon a 77' 911S on craigslist in massachusetts, and was coaxed into actually going over there to see it. Link to original thread: Yes i am finally here!!!!!

I say coaxed, because I did not have the money to purchase a 911, but the seller, named "K", offered to give me a month to pay for it if I liked it, since he himself had registration issues with the 911 (more on this part later)

I went over there, and I was enchanted with the car. I blame much of this on the obsession with carrera's, and i'm sure he saw that. He said that someone had come by the other day to look at his car, and offered him $6,500 but K turned him down. I considered musing the idea of having a glorious porsche machine and came by the next day to confirm my decision and worked out a deal where I would give him $6,500 by June 1st (I had a month). The only stipulation to this was that I had to handle the registration problem, which is as follows:

The registration for the 911 is in the previous owner's name, G. K bought it in august 11' and upon having to pay for the registration, opted not to. Therefore, he had to pay fines if he were to get a title for it, and since you only need a previous registration+ bill of sale to register a car in MA, suggested that I forge a bill of sale between me and G. This would help me in that I had a month to accrue the 6500 to give to him, and help him in not paying additional fees. I put 300 down on the car, so I was to owe 6,200.

The following day, K decided he wanted to trade with my 1997 BMW 528i, which he offered 3,900 for (I had paid 4300 for it less than six months ago), + $2,600 from me by May 8th. (-300 deposit that I had already put down).

I figured that this was alright. I signed over the title of my BMW and gave him $1,000 in cash.

I brought the car home with me (it stuttered quite a bit on the way back home). But I was ready to take on the challenges of porsche ownership.

Then this:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

WAIT!!! Can you get your money back?

That car is local. It was advertised as having a 3.2. I looked at the car the other day, it's a 2.7, REBUILT BY MOTOR MEISTER AND IT STILL HAS THERMAL REACTORS.

Not sure how much you bought it for, the seller told me he bought it for $5500 last fall.

I did not drive it, but it did run OK. Front pan was good, but there is some rust here and there as you know and you may not know that the flares were not welded on by a professional, tons of plastic on one side and you can see the weld seam.

if you bought it for $5500 and the motor is actually OK, and you can put on some early heat exchangers quickly, it would be OK. Otherwise, see if you can get your money back. The motor could be a time bomb and certainly is with the reactors in place. I didn't drive it so I don't know how it shifts. The MM engine and the bad flare install was all I needed to see.

if you are deadset on keeping it, get compression and leakdown tests ASAP.

It turns that our fellow Pelicanparts member, Stuart, was the "someone" that saw the car before. And it turned out that he had offered 4,000, not 6,500. And that K did not in fact buy the car himself for 7,500, and that it was $5,500. I reeled and sat depressed and confused for the next several hours, and then went back to look at the previous bill of sale between K and G that were with the porsche records. It's a photocopy, rather than the actual bill of sale, and the "7" in the $7,500 looks doctored from a 5!!! I was stunned that the con was so meticulous.

I still "owe" the guy $1300, and he wants me to go to the RMV with a forged bill of sale. What do I do ?!?!? I understand that I was foolish to take on a financially unreasonable car, and did it quite undiscerningly.

I really, really just want to reverse this transaction somehow. He and I are friendly enough where I would feel that he would be reasonable- until the point where I tell him that I know he tricked me. He's hardcore right wing, and was selling this porsche to buy a cabin. It makes me hurt, thinking that I got duped, and that I spent at least four hours "forging" a friendship of some sorts with this guy. Not only does this undermine my faith in people in general, it makes for a very bad start with what was supposed to be my dream car. It was a wing and prayer with which I took this on... i'm really most upset that he would lie and forge documents like that- then have me forge something as well.

The latter has not been done yet- I have to meet him again to give him $1300. What would you do at this point? I really don't mind sacrificing the deductible, all the parts I just ordered on pelicanparts, and the oil change that I'm doing for the car since it sat for 8 months without one, if I can have my car and the money back. Or not have to pay the $1300. He's been in sales for 20 years- I guess I should've known.


Sorry for the seemingly verbose explanation of events. I want to be thorough while choking on my anger and sadness over the situation, and I *beg* of you to please help me through this. Shaun has offered to call me tomorrow morning, and I am exploring my options. In worst case scenario, I want to at least have him pay for the fines and taxes if he won't give me my money or car back.

In the contracts (2) that we signed, there are no stipulations for if I do not pay the 1300 by the deadline. The first one states that I agree to pay a total of 6,500 by June 1st, or he has the right to put the car back up for sale. The second contract says that he trades my BMW + 2600 for his porsche, with the deadline of May 8th for the completed sale.

Is there any compelling argument for me to both point out that he lied, and the right to me receiving my money back?

Thank you so, so much for even reading and giving comments. I know this is not part of a technical discussion, but I would love to hear what you have to say.

[aigel]

I would not get discouraged by the car and what has been said about it on the forum including price paid previously, MM rebuild and flares. At that price you get what you pay for. I know this is apparently a lot of money for your budget, but a 911 under $10k will have its shortcomings.

What I really have an issue with is the documentation on the sale.

- Does the current owner have a bill of sale from the previous owner?
- What actually proves his ownership?
- Is there any way you can get it registered in your name without committing forgery?

You have to act very carefully while you still have $1300 that the seller needs to get. The second you drop that money off with him, he will quit answering your calls or answering the door.

Let's see what the brain trust here has to say on the documents. Hopefully someone local.

Sorry your start into 911 ownership is a little rough ...

G

[stomachmonkey]

Shuan knows what he is talking about.

How was this car advertised when you saw it?

With the 3.2 or the 2.7?

Unfortunately if the seller was truly deceptive and doctored documents as you say there is not a snowballs chance in hell the he will entertain reversing the deal.

I think your best recourse is to try and salvage the $1,300. Put it into rectifying some of the issues and then simply enjoy the car or try to flip it to get whole.

[preludeofwrath]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Shuan knows what he is talking about.

How was this car advertised when you saw it?

With the 3.2 or the 2.7?

Unfortunately if the seller was truly deceptive and doctored documents as you say there is not a snowballs chance in hell the he will entertain reversing the deal.

I think your best recourse is to try and salvage the $1,300. Put it into rectifying some of the issues and then simply enjoy the car or try to flip it to get whole.

but i have yet to receive the title...

[cashflyer]

So, you have about $7200 invested in a middy with a 2.7 motorscheister engine, and no title.

I hate to pile on, but as aigel said, you get what you pay for.
Rule #1: The cheaper a 911 is to buy, the more it will cost you. And the most expensive Porsche you will ever own is the one you got for free.

My suggestions:
(1) If you get a title, get the engine running properly and drive the snot out of it.
(2) If you don't get a title, buy some tools and part it out.
(3) Or save it as a parts for for your next 911 endeavor.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by preludeofwrath

but i have yet to receive the title...

Crap, he's not handing it over to you without the cash.

What he paid for the car is really not relevant.

Proving that he altered the document to deceive you is going to be tough. He can simply say the seller wrote the wrong number and corrected it. But again, what he paid has no relevance.

I think you need to take the approach that the completion of this deal rests solely on your ability to title the car in your name.

To do that you need the title. He can accompany you to DMV while you do the registration process.

My concern is that you have gone very far down a path that is difficult to turn around on.

He has the bulk of the money.

He has title to your BMW.

Did he represent the car as having a 3.2 motor? If he did that is your best ammo for a refund dialog or calling it even.

I think you will end up keeping the car.

So do what we've all done.

Make your list of things that you want to address.

Set a realistic budget and timetable.

Spend far in excess of what the car will ever be worth.

Enjoy working on it and getting to know it intimately.

Next year post pics of your freaking awesome fully sorted 911.

[onewhippedpuppy]

You are probably SOL. That's not the sort of "nice" guy that is simply going to give you your money back. Let's break this down into pieces:

The 911 Itself - buyer beware, you bought a Porsche for $6500. Frankly you're lucky that it runs at all. Not to be a dick, but the fact that you failed to do your homework or pay for an inspection is not the seller's fault. From how you describe the car as well as what you paid, I would say you did ok. You probably won't find a nicer 911 for $6500. Regretting your purchase does not justify returning the car, used car purchases do not have a warranty or return policy unless explicitly stated. Bottom line - I know you feel ripped off, but the seller has no obligation to do anything for you.

The Paperwork - you screwed up here, big time. Right now you do not have a legal document showing your ownership. Frankly you don't have a legal document showing that K owned it. A photocopy bill of sale that has obviously been altered is not a legal document. Except for possession, you do not own this car. Why didn't he give you a title?

My take is that your car is gone, you've already signed the title over to him. Your cash is gone, he doesn't sound like the sort of guy that will give it back. The car you ended up with doesn't sound that bad considering the price. Your only leverage is the $1300. I would use that final payment as leverage to get legal paperwork on the car, and I wouldn't give him another dime until I had it. Getting the Porsche free and clear is probably the best outcome you could expect right now.

[Z-man]

My rule # 1 is this: Do not get emotionally tied to a car you wish to buy. Emotions tend to cloud your judgement, as it did in your current case.

To buy a car without a legal title is foolish. You will not be able to title the car with a photocopy. Hate to scare you, but you may very well have a stolen car on your hands.

Best bet -- I'd go back to the seller and let him know the DMV won't let you title the car, since the title is not the official copy. If he says, "too bad," then tell him you may need to get the authorities involved -OR- have him get the original owner to get a new title and sign it over to you. Let him know that you will not do something illegal (forge a document) in order to title the car, and that asking you to do so is illegal.

Right now, the way I see it, you are out about $10k - $6000 for the 911, and the ~$4000 for your BMW.

This sounds like a very fishy deal. I really wouldn't be surprised if the car you have in your possession is stolen.

You have PM.
-Z-man.

[porsche4life]

Did you keep the title to the BMW?

[stomachmonkey]

Mmmm,

I've done deals with intermediary owners who never registered a vehicle. Makes titling a pain in the ass but doable, depending on local DMV regs.

I'm not getting the stolen feeling from this.

I would expect it to have been parted rather than sold whole.

A whole car leaves too much of a trail.

But then again it could be hot, seller realized it and dumped the car off on someone else. He'll claim no knowledge of it since he never registered it.

If there is a real provenance issue it would be more likely the car was built using stolen parts.

[sm70911]

But I was ready to take on the challenges of porsche ownership.

No you are not. And you are not obsessed with Carreras otherwise you would have studied this site and others, books, magazines, sought out owners to glean as much information as you could. That's obsession.
You are whingeing here like you did in tech. What you are hoping is someone from OT will solve your problem for you. A PP member who is a lawyer who can do work for free for you out of pity.
You are stupid to not research the purchase, you had six months since you missed the first car. and Now like a little child who breaks something then looks to Mummy for sympathy and problem solving.
I'm tired of it. Take it like a man. You didn't like the direction of the thread on tech and didn't get the answer you want, so now you re post it here. Grow up and figure out how you got into this situation. AT the end of the day you have been given solutions. The thing is, that like a child, they are not solutions you want to hear.

[sammyg2]

If it were me I'd tell him to give my money and beamer back and forgot the whole mess and I would promise not to make sure that he gets jail time, but as some of the folks around here can attest I'm kind of an A-hole.
They're right, but I'm am A-hole that doesn't get ripped off.
To put it mildly, you screwed the pooch big-time.


You could try to take the nice guy route and call him on it with the facts laid out, just take the emotion out of it. Show him the evidence how he lied and misreprented and offer a compromise deal.
Tell him to forget the $1300 and call it even, or whatever works for you. Don't make it too sweet because that could work against you later.

if he doesn't agree then take him to small claims court and 'splain to the judge that the seller had asked you to FORGE a legal document so you could help him commit tax exasion and fraud. You didn't actually agree to do that, did you?

[Grog]

Does the seller have a title that says he is the owner of the car? If not, he has no right to sell the car. If he can not produce a title I would threaten to take it to small claims court and then do it.

[sammyg2]

Oh one other thing you need to hear, sorry in advance if it O'fends:
Stop buying crap you can't afford.

You drug home a 911 you didn't have the money for.
Your credit card payments are over-due.

Bad decisions all around.

So here's some advice:
1) try to get out of that 911 deal somehow.
2) cut up your credit cards
3) pay off said credit cards
4) save money for a decent 911
5) do your homework, become familiar with the cars, ask for advice BEFORE you screw the pooch, and get a pre-purchase inspection either from a pro or from someone like Shaun or another pelican.
6) Never ever ever never buy a car without a title.

As stated earlier, take the emotion completely out of financial decisions. Your emotions will make you do stupid crap and cloud your judgement.
LOGIC and reasoning are your friends.
It isn't as much fun that way in the short term, but in the long term you'll be so much better off.


I realize that may sound harsh but coming from me it isn't, that's about as touchy-feely as I get.

[kaisen]

Laws were broken here. You're in the driver's seat. Contact an attorney and it should be pretty easy to get your money back.

Either way, you also need to worry about what he's doing with your BMW. You should know by now that he has no intention of titling it in his name. He's driving it around and you're still legally liable. Parking ticket? You. Red light camera? You. If he sells it to someone else the same way he "flipped" the Porsche, you might have a long liability..... he has no vested interest in making sure the next owner transfers it properly.

I had a client that traded his car with a flipper. Fast forward a couple months. A little after 3am one night there is a knock at his door. Three policemen, two with hands on their holstered weapons, one with a tactical flashlight in his face. Turns out "his" car was involved in a felony and fled police. They got the plate number and the database still showed it was his, so they went to his house. By 5am they had it all sorted out, but it wasn't fun.

You really need to lawyer up.

[Grog]

If you signed over the title to your BMW, you need to inform your DMV of the sale right away.

[porsche4life]

Eric is right. You need to stop asking the peanut gallery, and talk to a lawyer.

[Zeke]

Not all MM motor are total junk. If it doesn't leak oil and has good numbers, so far so good. It will probably not help in selling the car to know that it is a MM motor, but if you keep it long enough, that stigma lessens.

There are at least 2 members here that I know personally that have MM motors and track their cars often and have for years now. There have to be dozens of others along with the failures that you read about. Enough on that.

The body work sounds like a deal breaker to me, but I'd have to see how it's done and what it would take to rectify it. If the interior is very nice, you could be in this car a little high, but not totally buried.

It usually takes one Porsche to get ready for the next one. Consider this college. Some college costs a lot more.

[johnsjmc]

I sold my first car to a guy 40 years ago who took my signed ownership paid for the car and then left.He told me he would take care of the title change within the next few days. He was involved in a hit and run 2 days later and the cops arrived at my door. Luckily I had kept a record of his drivers license number . The police left and called me later to tell me the ownership had in fact been changed but records were done manually and by mail in those days.
Here what this guy has done is called curb siding and is illegal.
An under the table car dealer , here can have ALL of their cars seized ( although I expect that is rare ). I bet he avoided having the car in his name to avoid paying sales tax on it. Stop by your local police station and ask them for advice or talk to a lawyer.
Or if you get the title keep the car or part it out $6500 isn,t too awful for a running 911.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Either way, you also need to worry about what he's doing with your BMW. You should know by now that he has no intention of titling it in his name. He's driving it around and you're still legally liable. Parking ticket? You. Red light camera? You. If he sells it to someone else the same way he "flipped" the Porsche, you might have a long liability..... he has no vested interest in making sure the next owner transfers it properly.

Yup, BTDTGTS.

Sold a 67 Coronet to a guy. Forgot to pull the regi sticker from the window. He left it sitting on the street with no tags and racked up $500 in parking tickets. Guess where the tickets ended up? Had the bill of sale and copy of signed off title so got out of the tickets but still took time and effort on my part to deal with it.

Sold my beater/loaner Bronco to a close friends nephew who was having a rough patch. Tard ran around town running red lights before he got it registered, give you one guess who the tickets got mailed to.

Never again.