I don't get it....

[rick-l]

What about when they charge a flat rate to fix X and they deviate from the procedure and fix it? Like the dealer charges a book 2.5 hours to fix something and 1/2 hour later you get a call your car is ready? "Oh we don't do it that way anymore".

[javadog]

I can't think of a single thing that could be done properly in 20% of the flat rate time, so maybe you could give us a concrete example. Otherwise I'd have to think your statement was just inflammatory BS, no offense intended.

In general, I don't take my car any place where corners might be cut. I find the best guy out there and give him all my business. When I ran a shop, all of the work was checked; every single car was driven before the job with the customer, to demonstrate the problem at hand, and after the repair was completed, to make sure the complaints were addressed. We didn't do anything half assed and I don't recall we ever did anything that took substantially less than the book time.

JR

[fastfredracing]

Originally Posted by javadog

I can't think of a single thing that could be done properly in 20% of the flat rate time, so maybe you could give us a concrete example. Otherwise I'd have to think your statement was just inflammatory BS, no offense intended.

In general, I don't take my car any place where corners might be cut. I find the best guy out there and give him all my business. When I ran a shop, all of the work was checked; every single car was driven before the job with the customer, to demonstrate the problem at hand, and after the repair was completed, to make sure the complaints were addressed. We didn't do anything half assed and I don't recall we ever did anything that took substantially less than the book time.

JR

This, I would love to have some of you weekend warriors who say you beat book time by 2x, to come to my shop, and do 10 average repair jobs that come through the door, and see how many times you really can beat the book. The best of the best in this biz do not always beat the book, and regularly get their asses handed to them. I just worked 5 and a half hours diagnosing a real pain in the arse problem, and you know what? The customer is gonna complain when I bill them for 2. Gotta love this biz.

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by javadog

I can't think of a single thing that could be done properly in 20% of the flat rate time, so maybe you could give us a concrete example. Otherwise I'd have to think your statement was just inflammatory BS, no offense intended.

I took the POS Chevy Colorado in thinking the misfire was due to the extended warranty valve seat wear issue. Turns out it was a wire fatigued in the back of a connector that there was a TSB (and book time) for. When I questioned the labor charge they did waive the diagnostic fee.

[javadog]

I don't have any specifics on your particular repair, so I can't discuss it intelligently, but this brings up another point, using wiring as an example. The flat rate books don't include every conceivable repair or service operation you can do to a car. Often, the service writer must use a little common sense and pick the closest thing he can find, and modify it accordingly. I doubt there is a flat rate time for diagnosing and repairing the damage to that wire, in that connector, on that car. More likely, there is a time listed for a generic "wiring repair", without any reference to what that might entail. Might be enough time, might not be, depending upon the job in question. And generally, diagnosis and repair are two different things. Flat rate books often don't include diagnosis time, as that's rather hard to estimate for some things in a book.

When I was in the business, we explained to each customer what we thought would be involved to diagnose a particular problem and got their permission to expend that much time and money when they dropped off the car. Once the diagnosis was made, they got a total repair cost quoted to them, along with an explanation of the work involved and they got to approve that before the repair work was started. When they picked up the car, they already knew the total cost and had approved it. No surprises made for a better experience for all.

JR

[rick-l]

Had the cashier waited 3 hours to call me to tell me the car was ready after I ok'ed the repair with the service adviser I would have been none the wiser.

[javadog]

What repair did you authorize?

JR

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by javadog

What repair did you authorize?

JR

The service adviser told me of the TSB and quoted labor and parts (I assume from the TSB) to which I said go ahead and fix it.

[craigster59]

No offense to you mechanics out there, this commercial always cracked me up.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by rick-l

The service adviser told me of the TSB and quoted labor and parts (I assume from the TSB) to which I said go ahead and fix it.

Okay, so how many hours did he quote you and how long did the repair take? I have never seen a TSB that was so generous with the time allowed that a mechanic could beat it by much. After all, they are the ones using the warranty flat rate times, which are way low on a good day. Any chance they already had started the repair before they called you? I've seen that happen, too. Mechanic A assumes the repair will be authorized and gets started on it. Serice advisor B calls the customer and hopes to get the approval, after the work is completed, or mostly done....

JR

[JAR0023]

Originally Posted by szyzygy

Yeah, so why should anyone trust this book then? Everyone should just assume that the reported amount of time in the book is pure crap.

The companies that write the 'books' typically conduct independent time studies. They don't just write down whatever the shops and techs tell them.

Checks and balances.

Insurance companies and manufacturers (warranty) pay based on these 'book' times, more or less. Get too far out of line and you don't sell many copies of your book. A multi-year contract with a single large insurance carrier could be in excess of $50 million. That carries a little weight.

There is more than one company setting and publishing 'book' times. Again, get too far out of line and you don't sell as many copies of your book.

Bodyshops by and large bill the same was as mechanical shops. A good tech at a busy bodyshop can work 60 hours and flag(bill) more than a 100. A lazy tech not so much.

Shops and techs (loosely) split the money from the time you are charged. A slow or lazy tech doesn't make the shop as much profit as an efficient, hardworking tech. The slow, lazy techs get weeded out pretty quickly.

I'm painting with a pretty broad brush but maybe you can see where it's not really a system set up to screw the customer and a shop or company can't just set rates at whatever they want.

J

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Doctors do this. Exactly this. They bill based on the procedure, not their time. Unless there are complications that take them longer. Then they bill for that too.

Complications can be a lot of things but getting paid to fix problems created as a result of a procedure has and will continue to be going away. "Pay for performance" is near...not that reputation doesn't take care of a lot of this already...pay for reputation (patient satisfaction) will be part of it too. John didn't get his oxycontin script as he had asked-->he's not satisfied and indicates the same on some phone survey-->guess who gets dinged for not giving John the satisfaction to which he's entitled?

[cstreit]

Dealerships are more expensive but the mechanics are REQUIRED to do certain procedures on a job that an Indy shop might not. I have a few friends that are Porsche dealer mechanics, when you ask for new brake pads installed, they also check seals, lube guides,etc etc that take more time.

[DanielDudley]

Dealerships are there to sell new cars, and to provide warranty repairs and service to customers. They may provide service for out of warranty vehicles, but this doesn't mean that they won't charge for it.

Their business is to sell new cars. An independent shop is generally in business to fix cars. It is their primary job. I would expect them to be more competitive in pricing as they want your repeat business.