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-   -   Bikers and runners - an open letter (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/701517-bikers-runners-open-letter.html)

Flieger 09-04-2012 07:00 PM

You shouldn't ride on the sidewalk.

lendaddy 09-04-2012 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 6955674)
You shouldn't ride on the sidewalk.

I disagree, it's safer for everyone and I never inconvenience foot traffic. I am extraordinarily considerate of walkers, joggers, etc.. I do not ride on sidewalks that are heavily used period.

My actions are on the wrong side of policy but on the right side of sense.

nostatic 09-04-2012 07:06 PM

Sidewalks are for pedestrians. Bikes don't belong there - talk about a speed differential.

Cars and bikes can co-exist on most roads. They don't belong on expressways for the same reasons that pedestrians, mopeds, and motor driven cycles aren't - you have multiple lanes of traffic going in the same direction with no cross traffic or left turns. There isn't a way for those other vehicles or modes or transit to safely move. On a 2-lane highway vehicles can turn left and often there are signals and cross streets. Other vehicles have various ways of navigating and dealing with traffic flow. On a freeway there are no options.

Riding in the sidewalk is wrong imho. If some car drivers weren't so distracted and pissy about "being late" or whatever the excuse, there wouldn't be a problem. Similarly if some bike riders weren't jerks riding 4 abreast or insisting on the right of way when they don't need it, there would be less of a problem.

lendaddy 09-04-2012 07:06 PM

When my wife and two sons ride our bikes 3 miles to the tennis courts my choices are a 55mph 4 lane road or a sidewalk with sparse foot traffic. You would have my boys ride on the 4 lane next to vehicles going 60mph? Or just take our car instead of the bikes?

I see no logic in avoiding the sidewalk.

fintstone 09-04-2012 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 6955635)
A car isn't a bike. Much easier to safely pass a bike.

You guys are insisting on black and white rules.

How it easier to pass a bike that is in the middle of the lane and still give them the appropriate clearance?

Flieger 09-04-2012 07:12 PM

If you can ride on the sidewalk safely then you are not going fast enough...

Pedestrians don't go on a predictable path - they may stop unexpectedly, turn unexpectedly, be talking on the phone, etc.

On the road everyone is going the same direction and isn't going to make random moves like that.

So, if you had a sidewalk along a freeway then you would ride your bike on it? But not in a bike lane on such a road?

Flieger 09-04-2012 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 6955701)
How it easier to pass a bike that is in the middle of the lane and still give them the appropriate clearance?

I think what he meant was that if there is no bike lane and a bike was riding out in the lane then a car could make it's presence known and if the cyclist is not a jerk he would move over and there would be room for the car to go by without crossing the 2xY.

nostatic 09-04-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lendaddy (Post 6955694)
When my wife and two sons ride our bikes 3 miles to the tennis courts my choices are a 55mph 4 lane road or a sidewalk with sparse foot traffic. You would have my boys ride on the 4 lane next to vehicles going 60mph? Or just take our car instead of the bikes?

I see no logic in avoiding the sidewalk.

In that case, especially with kids, I'd say use the sidewalk. But it isn't my first choice, and around here people ride on the sidewalk even on side streets and main streets where there is a 25 or 35mph speed limit.

But speaking of anecdotal, seems you want to generalize from your situation to all bikes :D

nostatic 09-04-2012 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 6955701)
How it easier to pass a bike that is in the middle of the lane and still give them the appropriate clearance?

Not sure your question. I have tens of thousands of miles on local roads of all kinds. Here are my basic rules:

1. ride as far to the right as possible, but:
2. If there are parked cars on the right, look out for people inside and give them enough space so that an opened door doesn't take you out
3. ride a predictable line, though I will slide far right if I know I've got traffic behind me.
4. ride "large" - bright colors and be obvious
5. get in the left turn lane if you know it can be triggered (by another car or by your bike - in LA they have bike-friendly sensors). Otherwise use the cross walk to get across.
6. Assume that no one sees you and everyone is out to kill you

It frankly isn't often fun. I don't ride nearly as much as I used to or as I should, largely because drivers have become increasingly distracted and rude. I don't do any of the "jerkoff" nonsense that people are complaining about here. But I still have had people cut me off, nearly run me over, and honk/throw things because they thought it was funny. What is depressing is that some of the attitudes expressed here just reinforce that type of behavior. Since they've seen cyclists behave badly, it is open season on anything on two wheels. Celebrating the arseholes who honk their horns to try and scare riders or pedestrians is pretty damn low. Certainly some self-esteem issues at work with those people...

RWebb 09-04-2012 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lendaddy (Post 6955387)
what is it about 4 or even 2 lane roads with 55mph limits that is different?

lower traffic volumes

fintstone 09-04-2012 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 6955728)
Not sure your question. I have tens of thousands of miles on local roads of all kinds. Here are my basic rules:

1. ride as far to the right as possible, but:
2. If there are parked cars on the right, look out for people inside and give them enough space so that an opened door doesn't take you out
3. ride a predictable line, though I will slide far right if I know I've got traffic behind me.
4. ride "large" - bright colors and be obvious
5. get in the left turn lane if you know it can be triggered (by another car or by your bike - in LA they have bike-friendly sensors). Otherwise use the cross walk to get across.
6. Assume that no one sees you and everyone is out to kill you

It frankly isn't often fun. I don't ride nearly as much as I used to or as I should, largely because drivers have become increasingly distracted and rude. I don't do any of the "jerkoff" nonsense that people are complaining about here. But I still have had people cut me off, nearly run me over, and honk/throw things because they thought it was funny. What is depressing is that some of the attitudes expressed here just reinforce that type of behavior. Since they've seen cyclists behave badly, it is open season on anything on two wheels. Celebrating the arseholes who honk their horns to try and scare riders or pedestrians is pretty damn low. Certainly some self-esteem issues at work with those people...

While I do not blow my horn or try to "mess" with bikers, my experience has been just the opposite of what you describe. Those I encounter are often 3 or 4 abreast, impeading the flow of traffic that is normally 40 mph faster with cars backed up for miles. Most that I have encountered do not follow any traffic rules as far as I can determine and seem to intentionally impede traffic. In rural VA, often see them (and pedestrians) in the dark (and fog) with dark clothes and no light. I have had several close calls. Even worse in DC where they cannot seem to decide if they want to ride in the street or on the sidewalk...making pedestrians scurry out of their way or be hit.

When I lived in Albuquerque, we had some very fine bicycle paths...the spandex attired riders chose the adjacent 50 mph 4 lane instead...blocking on or both lanes for miles. They rode at a moderate place and seemed to be in no hurry, but seemed pleased that they could impede traffic. My experience in LA was even worse.

lendaddy 09-04-2012 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 6955707)
If you can ride on the sidewalk safely then you are not going fast enough...

Pedestrians don't go on a predictable path - they may stop unexpectedly, turn unexpectedly, be talking on the phone, etc.

On the road everyone is going the same direction and isn't going to make random moves like that.

So, if you had a sidewalk along a freeway then you would ride your bike on it? But not in a bike lane on such a road?

Fast enough for what?

Again, I don't pass walkers at speed and will even dismount near groups. Its a matter of being considerate (see the theme here :) )

Yes I would ride the sidewalk next to a hwy, no to the bike lane on a hwy. The reasons are obvious, there is a definite distinction between the two, cars never ride the sidewalk, they do veer into bike lanes.

Flieger 09-04-2012 08:14 PM

So if the bike lane was elevated by a few inches you would ride in it then? To me it doesn't seem all that much safer from a car crash.

By fast I meant that I ride fast enough in the bike lane that I would be endangering pedestrians if I was on the sidewalk. I don't want to do that and I don't want to slow down. So I use the bike lane (and therefore ride legally).

lendaddy 09-04-2012 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 6955862)
So if the bike lane was elevated by a few inches you would ride in it then? To me it doesn't seem all that much safer from a car crash.

By fast I meant that I ride fast enough in the bike lane that I would be endangering pedestrians if I was on the sidewalk. I don't want to do that and I don't want to slow down. So I use the bike lane (and therefore ride legally).

Again, I agree you're "legal" I get that.

If the area I was riding on was one that vehicles almost never venture onto then sure. I don't care what it's called or looks like, the two just shouldn't share a surface.

intakexhaust 09-04-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lendaddy (Post 6955694)
When my wife and two sons ride our bikes 3 miles to the tennis courts my choices are a 55mph 4 lane road or a sidewalk with sparse foot traffic. You would have my boys ride on the 4 lane next to vehicles going 60mph? Or just take our car instead of the bikes?

I see no logic in avoiding the sidewalk.

Not trying to ridicule but just makes me think of this past Labor Day. We're in the car on a two lane highway, 55 mph, heavier than usual traffic and we see the Griswold family riding their bikie's. On the opposite side of the road we have Clark and his kid going with the direction of traffic but the opposite side (and oncoming to traffic), we have the Spandex mom and kid. Sorry, but it was a funny sight.

Flieger 09-04-2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intakexhaust (Post 6955875)
Not trying to ridicule but just makes me think of this past Labor Day. We're in the car on a two lane highway, 55 mph, heavier than usual traffic and we see the Griswold family riding their bikie's. On the opposite side of the road we have Clark and his kid going with the direction of traffic but the opposite side (and oncoming to traffic), we have the Spandex mom and kid. Sorry, but it was a funny sight.

Sorry, I can't make sense of what you are describing.

lendaddy 09-04-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intakexhaust (Post 6955875)
Not trying to ridicule but just makes me think of this past Labor Day. We're in the car on a two lane highway, 55 mph, heavier than usual traffic and we see the Griswold family riding their bikie's. On the opposite side of the road we have Clark and his kid going with the direction of traffic but the opposite side (and oncoming to traffic), we have the Spandex mom and kid. Sorry, but it was a funny sight.

Wasn't us I swear :)

intakexhaust 09-04-2012 08:51 PM

lendaddy- Surely wasn't but just made me think of that family and their big holiday bike adventure on a busy two lane highway.

Was just one of those moments to get a laugh as we drove pass the mother and kid - riding against our lane of traffic and then glancing at the father and another kid on the opposite side of the road. At least the traffic slowed in each lane when near them. Hey, whatever... who cares?...

nostatic 09-04-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 6955819)
While I do not blow my horn or try to "mess" with bikers, my experience has been just the opposite of what you describe. Those I encounter are often 3 or 4 abreast, impeading the flow of traffic that is normally 40 mph faster with cars backed up for miles.

When I lived in Albuquerque, we had some very fine bicycle paths...the spandex attired riders chose the adjacent 50 mph 4 lane instead...blocking on or both lanes for miles. They rode at a moderate place and seemed to be in no hurry, but seemed pleased that they could impede traffic. My experience in LA was even worse.

Backed up for miles? I've *never* experienced that in CA in my 50 years of living in this state. Only time I think I've ever been inconvenienced by riders was when a street was shut down for a race or when a large organized ride was taking place.

How many times has this happened to you? Are you just unlucky?

I swear some people on PPOT say they have been here but must end up in a different state than I live in...

fintstone 09-04-2012 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 6955988)
Backed up for miles? I've *never* experienced that in CA in my 50 years of living in this state. Only time I think I've ever been inconvenienced by riders was when a street was shut down for a race or when a large organized ride was taking place.

How many times has this happened to you? Are you just unlucky?

I swear some people on PPOT say they have been here but must end up in a different state than I live in...

Been there many times. Lived in CA for a while. Bopught my Carrera there.

It doesn't take many close calls or having to follow bikes for miles to pass to feel imposed upon.

Traffic backups were in NM...however, have had bikes run redlights in front of me several times in LA (going quite fast)...and almost hit them. Maybe that isn't considered a close call in LA, but it scared me enough to almost make me hit another car to try to avoid hiting the bike rider.


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