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GeorgeK 12-21-2012 07:20 AM

Rapewta,
perfectly put. Great car, zero collector value.
I want my 911 to be driveable after 40 years and still have some value.
I want my 911 to look like a 911, inside and out.

I'd be mighty p*ssed if my engines lunches itself because of a problem the factory knew very well about yet did nothing for *10 years*!

onewhippedpuppy 12-21-2012 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeK (Post 7163542)
Keep in mind that all the shortcomings of the air-cooled engines are repairable, even by the more able home mechanic, do not cause terminal failure, and do not need a new engine. Here, it is "very Well Sir, that will be 30K, please" when you lunch your water engine. On a car that you just bought for 15-20K, it does not make sense. And there is *zero* independents who tackle these engines. Heck, even the gearboxes were not openable in the beginning...

But it is a matter of opinion and nothing else. I still think they are built on the cheap, are rather ugly, even though they are "better" cars, in the sense that they drive, brake, turn, heat and cool better. But on the long run? forget it.

The average DIY mechanic can rebuild a set of air-cooled heads? Replace a broken head stud? Rebuild an engine? I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore DIY mechanic, but rebuilding a 911 engine would give me pause. Here's one of your zero independents that works on the M96, they have a great reputation on Pelican and elsewhere:

Flat 6 Innovations

Last I heard a full rebuild is on the order of $15k, which coincidentally is about what an air-cooled rebuild will cost you.

BTW, you failed to insert your personal experience with the 986/996. I'm sure such a reply is bolstered by personal experience?

onewhippedpuppy 12-21-2012 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapewta (Post 7163593)
The M96 has a 5% engine failure.
If you purchased a 996 and had a RMS/IMS breakdown and out of warrenty, then shame on Porsche.
The other 95% of owners drive a wonderful ride.

The depreciation was caused by the 5% being bad cars.
If you are like me and have always wanted a rear engine flat-six Carrera for less than 20G's, you can drive a high-end world class sports car.

I have had to replace components that I thought went out earlier than expected.
Motor mounts, water pump, oil filler tube, ignition switch, center console tray hinge, window regulator and other small inexpensive things.

I have no complaints.
The 996 will never be a collectable. It is not a garage queen. It will continue depreciating and for that, I say just drive it as hard as you safely can. Enjoy your 20 thousand dollar sports car. Do the routine maintenance and if it blows up, big deal.

I'd be curious where you get your 5% number from. I can't disagree on collector value, but I also can't think of any modern car that I would consider to be collectible short of limited run exotics.

GeorgeK 12-21-2012 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 7163607)
The average DIY mechanic can rebuild a set of air-cooled heads? Replace a broken head stud? Rebuild an engine? I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore DIY mechanic, but rebuilding a 911 engine would give me pause. Here's one of your zero independents that works on the M96, they have a great reputation on Pelican and elsewhere:

Flat 6 Innovations

Last I heard a full rebuild is on the order of $15k, which coincidentally is about what an air-cooled rebuild will cost you.

BTW, you failed to insert your personal experience with the 986/996. I'm sure such a reply is bolstered by personal experience?

Matt,
Have looked at my location?
Personal experience? none besides having driven a few, which were great. My mechanic of 20 years has stopped looking afetr them completely because of the drama it raises every time a customer has to swallow *the* bill. There have been 5 or 6 that I can remeber of in my 100.000 paople area in the last 5 years. News travel fast.
And yes, I can take an air-cooled engin apart and change head studs, and have valve quides changed by a local pro (not in Atlanta...). For less than a 996 swap (as provided here in the Swiss Alps).
Again we agree tha they are good cars, only poor 911s, in the historical sense of what a 911 was and should be.

onewhippedpuppy 12-21-2012 07:40 AM

George, if you can do a head job or rebuild on an air-cooled motor then you can do the same on an M96. But either is beyond the skill of the average DIY mechanic.

GeorgeK 12-21-2012 07:50 AM

Matt fully agree,
Except the failure mode of these water engines is usually catastrophic, and requires more work and special tools that the mere mechanic does not have. Do you know the procedure and tools to bleed the coolant in a 996?

Anyway there is a reason the air cooled 911 forum is very much alive here (2 mil. threads vs. 7 thousand). The majority of people here prefer the older cars, which are more representative of the 911.
There is a reason why the water cooled prices have dropped lower than the air/oil cooled prices.
There is a reason why all the interesting 996s, turbos and GTs have 964 derived blocks, and do not display the type of expensive failures that are like a Damocles' sword above the head of owners, and which causes the price drop.

Can you live with all that? very good, more power to you. Funny thing is that you'll arrive on top of the mountain pass faster than I do in my oiler. But I'll have fun (in my view), and won't drive an appliance that has the residual value of a used camry...

onewhippedpuppy 12-21-2012 07:59 AM

George, bleeding the coolant is no more complicated than any water cooled motor. Pelican has a write up on the topic here: Pelican Technical Article: Boxster Coolant Replacement / Boxster Coolant Flush - 986 / 987

I don't want to come across as bashing the air-cooled cars, hell I currently own an '88 Targa. I just think the water cooled ones get a bad rap by people that really know nothing of them. They are a different but still similar experience to the older cars, and are better in many ways. As for the issues I have taken that gamble five times without a second thought, frankly the odds are in your favor that you'll get a good one. As I said earlier, if you're worried about the IMS (the one M96 fatal flaw) that can be remedied with a $600 improved IMS bearing.

As for value, it wasn't long ago that a nice SC was $10k here in the USA. As with most cars, depreciation and subsequent appreciation takes the form of a curve. Every car needs to bottom out in value, and I doubt you'll ever see a nice 996 for less than $15k.

BReif61 12-21-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeK (Post 7163685)
an appliance that has the residual value of a used camry...

Damn, there must be some pretty expensive used Camry's in Switzerland.

pwd72s 12-21-2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77 (Post 7163233)
Hmmm I thought I saw a thread the other day talking about how great the 02-04 996s were?

That thread was about the GT2...different engine completely over the regular 996.

GeorgeK 12-21-2012 10:15 AM

Here's one for 12900 chf. 30 second search.
PORSCHE 911 Carrera, Occasion, Essence, 148'500 km, CHF 12'900 - AutoScout24


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