Student loans

[scottmandue]

IMHO student loans are the next real estate bubble...

We are starting a whole generation off with humongous debt, that is no way to start a new life.

And what of the kids who don't get jobs and will have to default on their loans (more lives ruined)?

And don't give me that "oh some kids just need to go to trade school"... do you want YOUR kid to grow up to be a blue collar worker? We all complain about the dumbing down of America but then we talk of taking away their education?

AND 100 years ago college was not just a road to a big buck career... it was about educating people and making them a well rounded member of society... not to mention college teaches a bunch of intangibles such as interacting with other students (teamwork) and interacting with professors (authority) and learning life skill (living on your own after leaving home).

The banks are screwing our future (again) and we all have our heads in the sand.

Rant over... carry on!

[genrex]

I know this sounds Parfy, but I think we should do what the Canadians do. Make maple syrup and play hockey. Seems to work for them...

[lendaddy]

Obama will make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy before his term ends, count on it.

[id10t]

There needs to be more oversight on who gets student loans and what their degree track is, relating to the earning potential of that degree. Loaning someone $60k to go to med school, engineering school, etc. is a no brainer - any job they qualify for with that degree would pay enough to be able to pay the loans no problem. Basket weaving, Women's Studies, etc? Sure, you can get loans... but not for a lot of money.

[Jferr006]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

And what of the kids who don't get jobs and will have to default on their loans (more lives ruined)?

And don't give me that "oh some kids just need to go to trade school"... do you want YOUR kid to grow up to be a blue collar worker? We all complain about the dumbing down of America but then we talk of taking away their education?

A kid with a blue collar job, that afterall someone has to do, is better than an out of work college grad with student loans in huge pool of other college educated candidates. Perhaps it's below you but, it is possible to be happy and accomplished in life w/o out going to college and getting a desk job.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

And don't give me that "oh some kids just need to go to trade school"... do you want YOUR kid to grow up to be a blue collar worker?

I agree with you that college is more than trade school. I would be proud to have my kid grow up to be a good tradesman. I have the greatest respect for the trades.
I do believe whoever is handing out these loans needs to look at the earning potential of someone with, say, a BA in art history. They may be well rounded and delightful people, but well rounded doesn't pay back loans.
There is a theory that college is so expensive because it is so easy to get money to pay for it. An educated populace is essential for the future of our country, and it is in our best interest to encourage kids to go to college, but I think the availability of guaranteed loans should be dependent on the course of study and performance of the student.

[Jferr006]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

There is a theory that college is so expensive because it is so easy to get money to pay for it. An educated populace is essential for the future of our country, and it is in our best interest to encourage kids to go to college, but I think the availability of guaranteed loans should be dependent on the course of study and performance of the student.

Yes, some kids can bs their way through college and get that degree to slap on the wall. Some really earn and retain it to educate themselves. Same for kids that don't go to college... personal ambition goes a long way no matter what path you take. I think we are lacking ambition and motivation now that college is largely a standard and Ivy league schools aside, simple to get into.

[Rikao4]

you have 2 dumb things...
the 'student'..
Government involvement..

as far as the trade (blue collar ) folk...
nuthin but respect from my end..
just a mechanic some may say....
well I have to make an appointment to see him..

Rika

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

Rikao's image makes my point. Just *what* job(s) does such a degree qualify you for? You could go another year and teach high school social studies, you could go on for a full masters degree - but in what? Or a doctorate... so you can teach *other* people seeking this degree...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by id10t

There needs to be more oversight on who gets student loans and what their degree track is, relating to the earning potential of that degree. Loaning someone $60k to go to med school, engineering school, etc. is a no brainer - any job they qualify for with that degree would pay enough to be able to pay the loans no problem. Basket weaving, Women's Studies, etc? Sure, you can get loans... but not for a lot of money.

Originally Posted by Jferr006

A kid with a blue collar job, that afterall someone has to do, is better than an out of work college grad with student loans in huge pool of other college educated candidates. Perhaps it's below you but, it is possible to be happy and accomplished in life w/o out going to college and getting a desk job.

Spot on, both of you. My brother in law is a 23 year old truck driver that runs local routes (home every night), he makes around $70k in an area with low cost of living. I know a number of college grads that are lucky to make $40k. College is fine for all of that touchy-feely "well rounded" BS, but the bottom line is that you go to college to get a JOB. Otherwise you're just another well-rounded person with a pile of debt and no job, i.e. worthless to society. People that think simply getting a degree ensures your success in life are fools.

[scottmandue]

Just to qualify,

I'm 56, my friends went to college and ended up costing $20K, WTF happened?

I worked 10 years in construction so I am not against blue collar work, however I would bet most of you posting here are college grads with white collar jobs.

And I notice that most of you are falling in line with the recent notion that college is all about getting a job and $$$.

I will reiterate that 100 years ago college was about WAAAAY more than $$$, it was about being a better (more intelligent) person. Everyone wants to piss and moan about how ignorant/uneducated/uncouth the new generation is... but then we trot out the old "well rounded college grad that can't get a job."

When I got out of high school (30 years ago) a bunch of students got engineering jobs... and graduated to find no jobs.

So college should all about making money? Really? Is that all life is about? Chasing money? Is that the future we want?

[gprsh924]

Quote de id10t

There needs to be more oversight on who gets student loans and what their degree track is, relating to the earning potential of that degree. Loaning someone $60k to go to med school, engineering school, etc. is a no brainer - any job they qualify for with that degree would pay enough to be able to pay the loans no problem. Basket weaving, Women's Studies, etc? Sure, you can get loans... but not for a lot of money.

Quote de Jferr006

A kid with a blue collar job, that afterall someone has to do, is better than an out of work college grad with student loans in huge pool of other college educated candidates. Perhaps it's below you but, it is possible to be happy and accomplished in life w/o out going to college and getting a desk job.

Spot on, both of you. My brother in law is a 23 year old truck driver that runs local routes (home every night), he makes around $70k in an area with low cost of living. I know a number of college grads that are lucky to make $40k. College is fine for all of that touchy-feely "well rounded" BS, but the bottom line is that you go to college to get a JOB. Otherwise you're just another well-rounded person with a pile of debt and no job, i.e. worthless to society. People that think simply getting a degree ensures your success in life are fools.

I would love to know what he does...that seems way above the market value for that job, even here in Chicago.

You don't go to college to make money today, you go to make money tomorrow. What's his upside potential on threat $70k? It's a good amount of money at 23, it's no good at 33.

I graduated making $40k, headed toward $80k 3 years later. 3 years from now, 6 figures minimum.

[Jferr006]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Just to qualify,

I'm 56, my friends went to college and ended up costing $20K, WTF happened?

I worked 10 years in construction so I am not against blue collar work, however I would bet most of you posting here are college grads with white collar jobs.

And I notice that most of you are falling in line with the recent notion that college is all about getting a job and $$$.

I will reiterate that 100 years ago college was about WAAAAY more than $$$, it was about being a better (more intelligent) person. Everyone wants to piss and moan about how ignorant/uneducated/uncouth the new generation is... but then we trot out the old "well rounded college grad that can't get a job."

When I got out of high school (30 years ago) a bunch of students got engineering jobs... and graduated to find no jobs.

So college should all about making money? Really? Is that all life is about? Chasing money? Is that the future we want?

I don't think so at all but, that is primarily why everyone goes to college these days college=good job=good money.
Yes, I sit here at my white collar job but, my father is college educated and still used that to work his way up the "blue collar" ladder. Again I think sucess is achieved through individual goals and ambition rather than strictly by going through the motions to get a degree.

[VincentVega]

You don't go to college to make money today, you go to make money tomorrow. What's his upside potential

A high school friend quiet college at least partly because he was making a ton of $$ delivering pizza's. ~40k I think.

I dont think most kids really understand what they are signing up for when they commit to college and student loan payments. It's a lot to ask of anyone to know what they want to do for a living and agree to payback loans when they are 18. Parental input is key to me. Not easy, but you have to temple jr's ambition with a little reality sometimes.

[gacook]

I dunno...I got my job (federal, decent pay, little higher than mid-level) with a little college under my belt. I was hired based on my experience (10 years in the Army doing Secret Squirrel stuff). Actually, the position I was hired for specified "education does not substitute for experience." However, if I want to go any higher in my career (ie, stuck behind a desk the rest of my life, managing people who actually get to do the fun stuff), I need a minimum of a BS. Sad thing is, the gubmint doesn't even care WHAT my degree is in--they just want me to have a degree to get into management. So, I went ahead and got a BS in IT Management. In years past, I studied business, and was close to getting a degree in that, so I'm thinking about pursuing an MBA now...but not sure. I guess moral of the story is you don't NEED a degree to get a decent job; sometimes experience is better. But it helps to get ahead once you're in the door somewhere.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Just to qualify,

I'm 56, my friends went to college and ended up costing $20K, WTF happened?

I worked 10 years in construction so I am not against blue collar work, however I would bet most of you posting here are college grads with white collar jobs.

And I notice that most of you are falling in line with the recent notion that college is all about getting a job and $$$.

I will reiterate that 100 years ago college was about WAAAAY more than $$$, it was about being a better (more intelligent) person. Everyone wants to piss and moan about how ignorant/uneducated/uncouth the new generation is... but then we trot out the old "well rounded college grad that can't get a job."

When I got out of high school (30 years ago) a bunch of students got engineering jobs... and graduated to find no jobs.

So college should all about making money? Really? Is that all life is about? Chasing money? Is that the future we want?

More kids go to college today than ever before. A masters today is what a bachelors was 50 years ago. Yet kids are less well-rounded than ever?

I'm afraid I never bought into that argument, the pursuit of knowledge does not require a classroom. I have a BS in engineering and am working on my MBA, but do not attribute much of my success to college. A degree is to get your foot into the door of a great career in my mind, nothing more. Spending $100k to become "well-rounded" without any payback via a career is idiotic. Books are free at the library.

Bottom line - you work to make money. Many try to romanticize their career, but that's the bottom line. I went to college because it allowed me to have a career in which I could not only be satisfied, but also sufficiently support my family.

Originally Posted by gprsh924

I would love to know what he does...that seems way above the market value for that job, even here in Chicago.

You don't go to college to make money today, you go to make money tomorrow. What's his upside potential on threat $70k? It's a good amount of money at 23, it's no good at 33.

I graduated making $40k, headed toward $80k 3 years later. 3 years from now, 6 figures minimum.

He drives a semi delivering food commercially in the DFW area, which is a cheap place to live. Many of the more senior drivers make low $100k range. There's huge demand for responsible CDL drivers with clean records, he's a rarity in that world as he doesn't drink/smoke, is on-time, clean cut, etc. It's hard work and long hours, but the pay is great for someone without a degree.

Again, good wages don't require college. It helps, but there's a lot of trade related jobs that can still provide a good wage. Back to the trucking thing, over the road truck drivers make $100k+ easily but are away from home for days at a time.

[Rick Lee]

College tuitions are rising far faster than inflation because no one pays with their own money. It's all gov't. $$, loans and scholarships. And even if you finance your whole education and make it in four years, no one at age 18 understands how student loan repayment really works. You might see it as $500 a month, but expect to make $5k a month, so it looks cheap and easy. Colleges spend whatever the hell they want with zero austerity or cost controls, divide that amount by the number of students they have room for and call that the new tuition. And people line up to pay it. It's insanity.

I have no kids, but if I did, I want them to go into a field that will make a productive and happy member of society. Being well-rounded is the last reason in the world to go to college. It serves no one to have a a 23 yr. old kid working at Starbucks to pay back his $100k in student loans, while he's mad at the world because no one will hire him. I wouldn't wish that fate on the worst kid in the neighborhood. Far better to be an HVAC repair man or mechanic or do something that means you'll never be out of work and will have skills always in demand.

[aigel]

What Rick said. The easily available money has allowed tuition to balloon. It is much like the housing bubble in that sense. But what's missing is that people can default on student loans. Unless they can, money will remain easily available and the cycle will continue.

On the flip side, with every level of college you have, chances of being unemployed go down dramatically. Have a professional or doctorate degree and you are sub 3% unemployment rate, even when the general population is at 10%. That's worth a lot. Of course even the Ph.D. shouldn't be in basket weaving.

G

[Cannonball996]

In the US we screwed the university system when we started telling kids that degree would get them a good paying job. sure that while its more likely that a university degree will earn you more money, how ever thats not the purpose of a degree. the university system creates leaders and experts in specific fields, not necessarily a ticket to a job.

[tweezers74]

Interesting conversation. If loans were dished out purely on earning potential, then I would think you would have a major abundance of a particular job and a deficiency in another, even though it may be needed. And there are other factors that make a job desirable other than money, for example stability. When I got my nursing degree, I knew I wasn't going to become a millionaire but knew I would be able to find a job anywhere, even in the middle of nowhere, if I was good at it.

Eventually, I realized there is somewhat of a salary cap in nursing and I wanted more. Not necessarily more money but more of a career path. I went back to school to pursue my MBA, taking on student loans. I graduated with my BSN with scholarships so I did not owe one penny after that. Different story with my graduate degree. Still paying off the loan, ten years later, by choice. The interest rate is so low that I invest that money elsewhere with a higher return. Would I take out a loan again? Most definitely. From the time I started with my first nursing job, I am making about 70% more now. Yes, take in the consideration of inflation and experience, but I still would never be making the money I am now without that education in this short amount of time.

Yes, you can make good money in other industries without having higher education. That is why I think you need to look at all aspects before saying an education is worth it or if a student loan should be given to a particular major. I do think you can certainly make a lot of money despite not getting a graduate degree but again, might just take you twice as long. And of course, there are those people that just have determination, charisma, and don't need education at all. They were willing to take the risk and won.

Such a complicated topic...