International cultures

[Zeke]

Hugh's thread about international travel and the responses given prompted me to open this thread. I think the tipping point was Angela's statement to not sit and cross your legs in many countries.

Really?

With all the diversity and resultant PC going on in OUR country, not to mention that we print our ballots and nearly everything else in 2 or more languages, why should I act any differently in another country than I do at home? That being as long as my behavior is acceptable by decent standards.

I sure haven't noticed anyone from other countries trying to emulate a decent, polite American.

The gist of the advice on Hugh's thread was to not act like a tourist, or even an American while abroad. If only....

[sc_rufctr]

Just be yourself. Being polite can't hurt and it's is something I do normally.

The "loud American" tourist cliche is just that, a cliche and really old. The world is much smaller now. The more people I meet from other countries the more I realise we're all much the same. I travel to Asia a lot for a charity I volunteer for and I've never had a problem. But I have to wear a suit when I'm there so maybe that affects how people treat me.

[recycled sixtie]

Culture is an interesting word. I just have to go to a neighbor to see a change in culture. It does not mean to say that the way I live my life is acceptable in my neighbor's eyes. It is just different....

You are right in that behavior should be acceptable in another country. All it takes is for one bad apple to sully the reputation of many others of the same nationality. When in Rome do as the .....

One of the basic premises of anthropology is not to judge another culture by the standards of your own....

[Zeke]

Rick Lee has many times talked about the food in China. He is a brave man when it comes to food. Not only am I going to cross my legs in China, I'm eating what appeals to me, not just what appeals to them.

I can do that politely and if it insults them, too bad. I don't expect anyone to eat some of the food indigenous to the U.S. When in the South, I don't eat collard greens stewed in fat back or catfish, to name a couple of things that are gross to me. I don't expect Rick's wife to eat that stuff either.

[speeder]

People who have manners and common sense to start with never have a problem anywhere they go. It's the vast majority of other people who need a special primer on what not to do while abroad, etc...

I've seen plenty of foreigners with beautiful manners, in fact I see them everyday. So I don't know what you're referring to there. But you're a guy who's never going to travel, so what does it matter, right?

[masraum]

You don't have to eat the stuff in other cultures that you don't want to eat, but if offered, you have two ways to decline (good way and a bad way). You can come up with a polite excuse or you can make a face of disgust and say "no way in hell am I eating that crap". Sadly, there are some folks who would not think twice about being rude about it.

If showing the bottom of your foot is considered rude, then I would not show the bottom of my foot (I believe this is mostly a Muslim thing, isn't it?). There are rude folks from all over the world, that doesn't mean I should be too.

[widgeon13]

Don't pack a Playboy magazine for your trip to Saudi Arabia.

[Rick Lee]

I have rarely, if ever, eaten anything exotic while abroad just to be polite. I've eaten it because I knew it was going to be fantastic and it almost always was. Ok, the dog I ate in China was kind of an experiment and no one cared if I ate it or not.

The secret to getting along with people in other countries is knowing something about the place, its history and culture, so you have something to talk about and don't sound like an uneducated boob. Just do some research. If you go to Nanjing, PRC and can't understand why they hate Japan so much (for example), you need to do some reading beforehand the next time you go abroad. It would be pretty insulting to an elderly person there to show up and have no idea of that city's place in history.

A sen. guy at my company has to travel abroad a few times a year to visit our other offices. I know he hates it, tries very hard to live like an American while abroad, doesn't speak any other language or like non-American food and, well, the folks in our foreign offices thus don't think too highly of him.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by speeder

People who have manners and common sense to start with never have a problem anywhere they go. It's the vast majority of other people who need a special primer on what not to do while abroad, etc...

I've seen plenty of foreigners with beautiful manners, in fact I see them everyday

When I lived in the Middle East, the best thing I did was have a bicycle shipped over, a hybrid Trek if I remember (this was 1990/1991 and I sold it to my CO). After dark, all bike riders are local, I took full advantage of that riding at night in Manama, Dubai, Muscat, etc. You never, ever get a second look if you are on a bike at night.

There are putzes from every culture that trod the earth, American's haven't yet cornered that market. I just try not to be one...if that means I need to watch where I point my foot, how to tell a joke or hand someone my business card, I'm in.

My son is going to buy a used bike when he gets to Japan. I have traveled to and through Asia extensively and I am so happy he is on his way at 18.

ビール

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Rick Lee has many times talked about the food in China. He is a brave man when it comes to food. Not only am I going to cross my legs in China, I'm eating what appeals to me, not just what appeals to them.

I can do that politely and if it insults them, too bad. I don't expect anyone to eat some of the food indigenous to the U.S. When in the South, I don't eat collard greens stewed in fat back or catfish, to name a couple of things that are gross to me. I don't expect Rick's wife to eat that stuff either.

They expect that from you, such as eating with your hands and not use chop sticks. It is very rude to eat with your hand there unless you are eating a big piece of chicken.

[Christien]

I think the stereotype of the loud obnoxious American tourist is largely done and gone. I think it came about in the 60s and 70s and doesn't really apply anymore. Whenever and wherever I've travelled, the Americans tend to be the ones well behaved and well educated about the local culture. I think it's the Japanese tourists that have the bad reputation nowadays.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

The secret to getting along with people in other countries is knowing something about the place, its history and culture, so you have something to talk about and don't sound like an uneducated boob. Just do some research. If you go to Nanjing, PRC and can't understand why they hate Japan so much (for example), you need to do some reading beforehand the next time you go abroad. It would be pretty insulting to an elderly person there to show up and have no idea of that city's place in history.

This pretty much sums it up very well.

[RWebb]

Do pack a Playboy magazine for your trip to Saudi Arabia.

Those guys are dying for copies and enjoy them while sipping single malt. BUT don't get caught - if you do, you need friends in high places...

[Laneco]

If I were to stay at someone's houe in the United States, I would probably already know what would be, or not be acceptable behavior. Through observance, and clarifying questions, I would figure out the rest because as a guest, I would never want to make my host uncomfortable.

The same applies to travel in foreign countries. A little research helps avoid many misunderstandings for acceptable dress, picture taking, alcohol consumption, social touching, etc. The idea is to blend in, interact as a local, and enjoy the culture.

As far as foreigners trying to adjust to the US culture - I've found that they usually DO try very hard to understand the culture, speak a few words of the language (even bring an interpreter) etc. I have found foreign visitors to our country to be enegetic, good humored, usually well educated, humorous and frankly charming.

Or perhaps I am just extremely fortunate to meet such consistantly likeable people!.

angela

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Just be yourself.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

... and don't sound like an uneducated boob.

How am I supposed to reconcile these?

[mossguy]

Perhaps your own likeability rubs off on them!

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by speeder

People who have manners and common sense to start with never have a problem anywhere they go. It's the vast majority of other people who need a special primer on what not to do while abroad, etc...

I've seen plenty of foreigners with beautiful manners, in fact I see them everyday. So I don't know what you're referring to there. But you're a guy who's never going to travel, so what does it matter, right?

I'm going to travel in my own back yard, so to speak. I could start singling out specific behaviors of foreign expats that I don't care for, but that isn't the point. The point is we've allowed our culture to change for the worse (IMO, of course) and a lot of that has to do with behavior imported not just from other countries, but other parts of this country.

But I'm expected to not offend someone in their own country through a benign gesture? Then the rule applies here. It's one or the other. I can either accept other cultures for what they are here on U.S. soil and they can accept me sitting crossed legged. (Just an example, Angela, not picking on you.)

If they don't intend to offend, neither do I. It is careless? I suppose.

[Laneco]

What is a benign gesture in one place, is definately not in another. The "OK" sign with thumb and fingers is benign in this country. In other countries, it has deragatory sexual meanings. The thumbs up sign is benign here but elsewhere in the world, it means something like "stick it in your hiney...." In some cultures, red is a "lucky" color, but if you wear it in certain neighborhoods in the US - you might be in a whole buncha trouble... Some foreign countries, when you sit a table and there are open seats, people will plop down (even if there are OTHER open tables) right beside you. In the US - we're a little taken aback by this - we like our wide open spaces.

If you were going to drive in a foreign country, you would learn a bit about the driving requirements or be VERY careful to do the same thing that everyone else is doing. As far as I'm concerned - the same thing applies to the cultural aspect. Learn enough to stay out of trouble, observe others, and enjoy the wonderful differences the world has to offer.

angela

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Laneco

What is a benign gesture in one place, is definately not in another. The "OK" sign with thumb and fingers is benign in this country. In other countries, it has deragatory sexual meanings. The thumbs up sign is benign here but elsewhere in the world, it means something like "stick it in your hiney...." In some cultures, red is a "lucky" color, but if you wear it in certain neighborhoods in the US - you might be in a whole buncha trouble... Some foreign countries, when you sit a table and there are open seats, people will plop down (even if there are OTHER open tables) right beside you. In the US - we're a little taken aback by this - we like our wide open spaces.

If you were going to drive in a foreign country, you would learn a bit about the driving requirements or be VERY careful to do the same thing that everyone else is doing. As far as I'm concerned - the same thing applies to the cultural aspect. Learn enough to stay out of trouble, observe others, and enjoy the wonderful differences the world has to offer.

angela

You're right. I guess my point is obscure. I wouldn't flip a sign in any circumstance where I wasn't sure. I don't do that here. I also don't run my shopping cart into the back of the person standing in front of me. Wish I could say that for others in my 'diverse' city.

[vash]

i love world travel. wish i could fill my days with it.

i find pure bliss in learning about a people. learn what they eat, how they think, what they feel. this include any of their culture idiosyncrasies.. why go somewhere and be completely "american" when i can do that at home? i am not above opening my mind and acting differently..

in malaysia, it is very impolite to point with your index finger. they use their thumbs..egads!! that was difficult to reprogram. i certainly wasnt going to ignore this gesture because it is perfectly polite to point with my index..i slipped a few times, but i got it down in the end. i tucked my american away and led with my thumb. i'm cool with that..i am in their house.

zeke, you ever visit someone's home where they dont allow outside shoes? you dump your shoes in their entryway?

also in malaysia, the host at a house dinner has carte blance to put more food on your plate. only way out of being stuffed like a tick is to finish your rice before the host. eating with hands was a challenge, but i pity the host that thinks he can eat rice faster than me..and it is stickier rice. i had to secretly help my wife ( i snatched rice off of her banana leaf) without my help, we would still be there! hahah.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by vash

zeke, you ever visit someone's home where they dont allow outside shoes? you dump your shoes in their entryway?

vash, that is a very good question and point to make. The answer depends on what capacity I'm visiting someone's home that has that trait of leaving shoes at the entry. Certainly if I was a guest at their invitation I would be obliged to remove my shoes. Not so if I'm there to work.

Now AFA working in a home that has the shoe thing, I would have sorted that out beforehand. However, once I was sent to a home where they removed their shoes and I wasn't aware of the situation ahead of my arrival. When I came to the door I saw the shoes. I know some families are tolerant of workers and their shoes and some are adamant about removal. Well, that day I was wearing lace up 7" boots, so it was a hassle for me. I had a chop saw and table saw set up outside and needed to go in and out about a 1000 times.

I can usually isolate the work area and use drop cloths to protect the flooring which I do anyway. This wasn't going to work for this family. I told them that my insurance would not allow me to work shoeless (which I have no idea if that's true or not. Seems logical). Still, there was no understanding between me and the homeowner. I would not have gotten into this predicament on my own. When I originated any agreement for work myself, I laid out the rules about working conditions on a number of requirements.

I was left with a choice as to do the work and get the pay or not. I chose to do the work and remove my boots. I worked in my socks inside and out for the duration. First and last time. Would have been a POC if I had some clogs in the truck. Perhaps that is what service people do when they work in homes where that situation exists more often than I.

AFAIC, it's unsafe to work w/o proper footwear for a number of reasons. So, how do you handle this?