You guys let us know if those black helicopters are really as quiet as they say, ....... if you can.

Pat....a plane really hit the Pentagon.

I didn't say otherwise. Though it is quite interesting how most of the plane disappears in that wreckage.

I'm just saying how any potential video of that event disappeared.

So, as a student of political science with a focus on terrorism, I can say with almost complete certainty that this was not a terrorism related event. The whole idea behind terrorism is not really to kill, maim, or destroy--but to insight fear in a larger group. So if you blow up a building or shoot down an aircraft somewhere it is scary, but it becomes a great deal more terrifying if you define your target as ie. abortion clinics, or airliners, and publicize your group.

It is extremely uncommon for groups not to take credit for their deeds. The only scenario I can possibly contrive that supports terrorist involvement is a domestic entity taking control of a US military launch facility to field a "missile or other projectile" to down flt 800. The idea is just that, a mere suggestion--although I suppose it could have been done remotely using computers--but probably not in 1996.

The simplest solution is most likely the correct one....who said that? Anyone?

It's not like everyone there had cell phone cameras at the time. The videos of the crash were taken from security cameras on gov't. bldgs, so of course, the gov't. has custody of the footage. What are you suggesting? The plane didn't really crash there? Anyone who lives in that area (I did) saw the wreckage and damage to the bldg. every time they drove to/from work. It was just a little too big to throw a blue tarp over the mess while they cleaned it up and kept onlookers away.

The Pentagon is made of a ****ton of concrete and stone. They didn't use much metal like a modern building since it was built in WWII.


There's a lot of deniers since it wasn't filmed as broadly as the WTC crashes. There was a plane. I saw it.

While stipulating that it was not an accident there is another scenario. It could simply be that some nut-bag got ahold of a stinger...

I can see why the government would not want us to know those kinds of weapons are floating around out there.

I clearly remember the flight 800 crash and the NTSB investigation that followed. It didn't pass the sniff test to me at the time and I suspect there is a lot more to the story we may never know. It happened about 3 months after my dad was killed in a plane crash so I had a heightened awareness for all things aviation at the time.

In my dads investigation, I believe the NTSB got the facts exactly right and accurately recounted the events leading up to the crash. In Flight 800 it seemed like they took a left turn early on and ignored or discounted some very credible evidence that pointed to a terrorist SAM strike. It would be real interesting to see Bin Laden's Flight 800 files to see if the dots connected.

I remember the account from the veteran P-3 pilot. He was career Navy who had witnessed dozens of Stinger launches in combat and had a bird's eye view of Flight 800. He said it looked exactly like a SAM launch and impact ordinance explosion. This is an experienced combat veteran who was a trained observer, at altitude with the sun on his six. Dozens of casual observers in Long Island confirmed his observation with very similar accounts.

The radar track is inconsistent with the NTSB account of the explosion and rapid elevation rise.

The debris field is inconsistent with NTSB report of the early nose separation.

I tend to agree that if it were a terrorist act, the group would want to claim responsibility but we have had other clear terrorist acts where no one claimed responsibility:

Backpack bombing during the Atlanta Olympic Games. Clearly an act of terrorism but Rudolph never claimed credit or listed demands. Centennial Olympic Park bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2004 Egypt Air Flight 990. The second officer turned off the auto-pilot, throttled down the engines, and deliberately flew the jetliner into the water chanting Allah Akbar! EgyptAir Flight 990 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boston Marathon Bombing. Two brothers carried out an act of terrorism alone and no one claimed credit until after they were caught.

The simple fact is that there are terrorists both foreign and domestic who do not follow the typical terrorist profile, act alone or in isolated groups and intend to maime and kill Americans or westerners for their own reasons, without claiming responsibility to avoid detection. I think the NTSB simply believed this was not possible in 1996 and eliminated the theory of two wild eyed terrorists in a small fishing trawler or pleasure craft launching a pair of shoulder fired Stinger or Russian equivalent SAMs and successfully achieving a direct hit, downing Flight 800. I trust the original account of the P-3 pilot and I think the NTSB blew this one. We may never know the reasons why.

Wasn't it 1996 or, there abouts, when the US equipped the anti Russian mujahadin in Afghanistan with the latest versions of the shoulder fired stinger missiles and trained those people in the proper use of them? And wasn't Bin Laden one of them?

Why would we have done that in 1996 when the last Russians had left Afghanistan eight years earlier?

Some very detailed observations.
Flight 800 Investigation
http://twa800.com/trajectory/termina...comparison.jpg

Yea, it's not like we have seen a lone nut with a shoe bomb, underwear bomb or a couple of brothers working alone and in isolation acting out any terrorism.

I agree.

I saw it too, in the worst computer animation passed off as parking lot video I have ever seen (day after incident- as seen on TV).

Lots of weird stuff on that one, but let's take one incident at a time. They are not all the same.

Hey George....why don't you just **** off and die? Take your conspiracy theory and cram it up your ass.

I don't think the range of a Stinger missile would have enabled one to be used in the Flt 800 incident.

That is a matter of great debate. According to Army officials, it would certainly be a long shot, but not an impossible shot. Other shoulder fired SAMs from Russia and China also have longer range.

Howstuffworks

You would think if it was fired from a Navy ship by accident some member of the crew would have come out by now. He would be looking to cash in and make a few bucks. Money is the reason I think most crazy theories are BS. No one can keep a secret these days when so many places will buy your story.

Did I hit a nerve?

I've never been able to find anything on it on-line until today, oddly enough.

Video of the Attack
Pentagon Attack Frame-Up
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pe...cs/pcstrip.jpg
RE: Why didn't they release the in-between frames?

I recall quite clearly seeing this video played twice on CNN (on the 12th). It originally had some poorly done computer animation of an airliner which as supposed to be the unedited parking lot camera feed.

Wolf Blitzer turned to his stage hands and said, "that's a computer animation of it right?", followed by a bump noise, the camera moving off of him and some confusion ensued on the set.

Wolf Blitzer then said that it wasn't the right tape they were suppose to show, and there was a mix up. They continued the show with a choppier version lacking the animated aircraft.

Maybe it was something CNN was trying to enhance for the viewers, maybe someone in power realized it wasn't up to snuff and had it pulled.

We will never know, I just wish I had my VCR running at that moment because I've never seen that exact clip again.

Interesting article, thank you for posting it.

Was Bristol Palin old enough back then to have had a hand in this?

So VaSteve has a panty attack, and you are here to rescue him?

How sweet, why don't you two boys get a room?:D

I don't need to rescue him. Steve lives near where I used to live and we both regularly drove by the crash site while the clean-up and repair were still going on. It's pretty visible from Rt. 27/Columbia Pike when headed to/from Arlington. IIRC, the repair took longer than the entire construction of the Pentagon did back in the 1940s. If it wasn't a plane, how did they get so much airpane wreckage to that site after they planted bombs inside the bldg and had no idea who would be near it when it went off? What happened to Barbara Olsen, who called her husband, the then Solicitor General, from that flight minutes before it crashed? Your conspiracy nutbaggedness has been well-known here for years. You probably have more evidence of the lunar landing being done in a tv studio than this crackpot theory about the Pentagon on 9/11/01.

What theory would that be?

All I said is CNN showed some really poorly done computer animation on the 12th, I drew no conclusions.

You remember driving by the site, I remember the video.

Memories, that's all they are now.

Look George....don't for second think I don't see through your bull****. You're trying to make inferences it wasn't a plane. And some how pull up some BS about Wolf Blitzer and some animation you remember from 12 years ago.

I saw the plane. I heard the explosion. I saw the wreckage. It won't leave my memory.

For years idiots like yourself have claimed a bunch of conspiracy theories about that. **** you and your theories. There's no question in my mind what I saw.

If you think what I saw was BS, then I have the right to say what you saw is BS.

My wife saw it too, we looked at each other and said WTF was that supposed to be.

That's pretty funny, kratch. You're just dancing and dodging now.

If I understand him correctly, VaSteve saw the plane and heard the explosion in real life... in real time, and you're attempting to give more weight/legitimacy to some animation you saw on CNN because it supports your theory/position that what really happened doesn't involve the airliner and there's some coverup going on.

Steve isn't the only one who saw that airliner hit the Pentagon, you know. Tons of people saw it come right over them as they were driving and came forward and told about it. Check some of the newspapers from that horrible day.

You have a right to say anything is BS... that is not at issue. But don't expect that you won't be called on it if you can't back it up. Find someone who saw the airliner and talk to them. IIRC, one of the women who worked in the Pentaon and survived the crash was included in one of the documentaries telling about how she saw the airliner coming in.

Not at all, I told you what I saw on the 12th, on TV.

I never said flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, just that CNN showed a poorly executed animation of it.

You choose to lie.

Shame on you.

As much as I hate to I'll have to agree with kach here. All he said was the TV footage was poor cumputer generated crap. Others ramped it up from there.

Rick, I want to Internet high five you for this... My mind went to the exact same set of posts. I don't think I will ever surpass the level of incredulity I felt back on that thread.

Still dancing.

I didn't claim you said it.

You're too much of a cowardly weasel to take that solid of a stand on it.

All you've done is strongly suggest or imply that you don't believe the airliner wasn't what hit the Pentagon, based on what you saw on CNN:

What would having it on tape prove? Nothing.

Come on, kratch... man up... what do you believe happened, the version substantiated by your cheesy conspiracy thinking based what you saw on CNN, or the version substantiated by all the people who were there and saw the airliner hit the Pentagon?

Or if you don't like either of those options, you can always continue dancing.

What's it gonna be?

HmmmmmMMMMMmmmmm? :cool:

Based on what my wife and I saw on CNN on the 12th (flight 77), I can still ask WTF was that!

This parking lot view is the only publicly released video I've read.

The version in the stills is what the public can now access and is on-line, matching what CNN showed later on in the day on the 12th.

The animated version was never seen again, it could have been an in-house study trying to correct for the fish-eye lens which made the aircraft look very small, I cannot provide an explanation, can only tell you what I saw.

The alleged missing video frames, the alleged incorrect time stamp of the 12th, all can be explained by others.

And for a description on "cowardly" Heel n Toe, simply look at yourself in the mirror. Internet tough guy, how pathetic is that?

The topic of the thread is FLIGHT 800, people which choose to hi-jack a thread, change the topic and discuss other incidents show an immaturity and lack of self control resembling that of children. There is a special section of the forum for that sort of thing we call it PARF. Please take your silliness and ugliness there, where it is the social norm.

If you cannot discuss flight 800, please don't post in this thread, thanks.

I don't remember anything about Flight 800, but everything I've read about seems fishy...And I wouldn't be surprised if the gov't covered up a mistake by the US Navy.

And if that were the case, one can assume that Navy guy would have gone nuts or cimmitted suicide by now.

Kach, in regards to the timecode...It could be recorded in drop frame.

Come on, kratch... man up... what do you believe happened, the version substantiated by your cheesy conspiracy thinking based what you saw on CNN, or the version substantiated by all the people who were there and saw the airliner hit the Pentagon?

Or if you don't like either of those options, you can always continue dancing.

What's it gonna be?

why is it that every time a conversation about a conspiracy starts pointing to something more than the accepted theory suddenly a different, unrelated, less accepted conspiracy butts in and derails the original conversation?

it happens in almost every conspiracy discussion. wait... am i a conspiracy theorist now?

i do believe that a lot of this stuff gets dismissed as "crazy conspiracy talk" when it is just people asking questions, not saying they know what actually happened. there is a world of difference between denying the moon landing or holocaust and thinking that the state spies on us or that something was left out of the warren commission report.

anybody with half a brain must realize that governments lie to their masses on a regular basis. once you realize this only an idiot would buy every explanation every time... kinda like after you learn your wife having an affair, once you see the lies, everything looks like a lie.

With TWA 800 I think a lot of people doubt the gov't. version of events. But there aren't any more believable alternative ones either. They're all pretty shaky. With the Pentagon on 09/11, I don't need to even hear the gov't. version because thousands of people were personally involved and/or witnessed the whole thing up close and personal. Everyone who lived in the area at the time saw the crash site and knew people who either died, were injured or helped in the recovery efforts. I think it's pretty safe to say the local yokal firefighters and EMS from Arlington and Fairfax Counties weren't going to go along with any federal gov't. attempt to make up a silly story.

^^^^ This

I have a bud who is a huge 9/11 conspiracy nut. He will vehemently dispute me about what happened with the WTC , even though I personally witnessed it and took part in the recovery effort.

Given all the other things we've recently found that the Federal Government has been doing, why should I believe the Official report on Flt. 800?

does anyone here have any doubt that the FDR administration had prior knowledge of an imminent japanese attack? would that be considered a conspiracy?

there is plenty of public record showing the US goading them into a position of war, and after the bretton woods agreement the trade off was certainly worth a few thousand lives and the few obsolete ships left in the harbor that day. i for one doubt the benevolence of "world leaders".

i would have no problem believing there was prior knowledge of 911, the rulers have gained much power from it.

those who forget history....

Aviation accident investigations always follow a protocol of data gathering without assuming causal events. It is the cornerstone of aviation safety in most of the world.

I was the president of the accident board that killed a good friend of mine...he was a Sikorsky pilot and I was his roommate when I was the chief government pilot at the factory. I was "geo-batching" during the week in Bridgeport and driving home to my family every weekend. Yong Lee and I became very good friends.

Yong and Dave Kish were in a hover at 250' AGL at the factory doing airborne compass rose checks on a CH-53E when the accident occurred. The main rotor, according to witnesses, tilted back to a degree that it impacted the tail section of the aircraft and the helo basically ate itself up at full power. All four aboard were lost.

The Sikorsky Fire Department was able to put the fire out in under a minute so we had the entire drive train to work with. This would be key.

Over the next weeks we were certain of the cause of the accident. The duplex swashplate on the 53E (which is huge) has a series of bearing "races" that act as the mechanical interface between the stationary swashplate and the rotating swashlpate. This assembly, attached to the helicopters transmission, controls all pilot input to the main rotor.

The below is an H060 swashplate. You can see the pitch change rods (which have blue. yellow and red tape on them...and there is a forth, I promise) that rotate. The center section, with the hole in it, does not. The rotating part rest on bearings a top the stationary plate.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1371924629.jpg

The 53E has seven blades and is huge.

The bearing failed and the pitch change rods, because of the lateral forces, snapped and the main rotor on the 53E was no longer controlled and tilted aft, taking the aircraft apart in the worst possible flight regime.

I'm going through all this because we knew the bearing race failed and were figuring out why. There was a lot at stake for all the companies involved but the accident investigation proceeded without interference, rancor or interruption: We followed the protocol that all accident investigations follow. Flight 800's accident investigation did not.

Interestingly, one of the accident investigators working for me, an engineer from MCAS Cherry Point, remember a accident with a Japanese 53E that had crashed a sea years before.

The transmission, including the swashplate assembly, was recovered and still being stored in Japan. We sent the engineer over. Amazingly, the Japanese had not taken the assembly apart during their accident investigation. There it sat.

When we opened it up we found the exact same failure mode that bough Yong's 53E to earth. Incredible. Same failure mode years apart. We grounded the whole 53E fleet.

Again, my point in all this is that aircraft accident investigations are what they are for specific, proven reasons. As I watched the unfolding events of the Flight 800 accident investigation it was clear to me that the protocol was being ignored. Again, I have no conspiracy thoughts, only that they were not following the tenets of aviation safety.

Recently?? How about the Warren Commission report? And how about the Iraq WMD's intelligence??