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TWA Flight 800 - Revisited

I was watching ABC news this morning on TV and they covered this topic a little bit.

Documentary aims to 'break silence' on crash of TWA Flight 800
Documentary aims to 'break silence' on crash of TWA Flight 800 - CNN.com
Quote:
(CNN) -- Skeptics who have long theorized that TWA Flight 800 was brought down by sinister forces will get a fresh surge of energy when a new documentary attempts to disprove that the 1996 crash was accidental.

............"These investigators were not allowed to speak to the public or refute any comments made by their superiors and/or NTSB and FBI officials about their work at the time of the official investigation," a news release announcing the documentary said.
"They waited until after retirement to reveal how the official conclusion by the (NTSB) was falsified and lay out their case."

.................The evidence proves that "one or more ordnance explosions outside the aircraft caused the crash," the producers said. But it does not identify or speculate on the source of the ordnance explosions.
The brief portion of the interview I saw had the chief investigator say that a couple of FBI guys outside of the investigation showed up one day and told them what the official story line was going to be.

The team of about six lead investigators involved have waited until they were retired to speak out for fear of being fired and losing their pensions.

If you were able to watch any CBC (Canadian) news back in 1996, you would have serious doubts that anything other than a missile was the cause.

Quote:
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Producer: "One or more ordnance explosions outside the aircraft caused the crash"

The documentary, "TWA Flight 800," will premiere July 17
It makes its debut on the anniversary of the crash

All 230 people aboard died when the plane exploded and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:55 AM
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I'm trying to find something from 1996 from the CBC which I remember.

No luck so far, practically pre-internet. Just finding a terrible CBC conspiracy thing hosted by an annoying woman.

Archived on video?
http://www.css.washington.edu/emc/title/7033
Quote:
CBC-TV News in Review: September 1996*
1996 ----- color ----- 60 min ----- vhs
Segments: 1. The Olympics: Games People Play (18 min) With a special focus on the Olympics� centennial, the Atlanta Games, and Canada�s Olympic program, this report assesses the politics, commercialization, and "pure sport" aspects of the Olympics. 2. Raising the Irving Whale (13 min) Examines Canada�s largest salvage operation as well as corporate and public responsibility. 3. TWA Flight 800: Terrorism Hits Home (12 min) The tragedy of TWA Flight 800 and other recent terrorist attacks is the focal point for examining the new front line of terrorism around the world. 4. The Quebec Floods: A Natural Disaster? (13 min) CBC correspondent Tom Kennedy examines the events, the environmental implications, the issue of human intervention in nature, and the questions being asked about the cause of the floods. (Closed-Captioned) (Extensive study guide available upon request) (Donated by the Department of Canadian Studies) (Restricted to use by institutions of learning within the State of Washington only)
Topics: (Advertising, Aero/Astronautics, Canadian Studies, Economics, Environmental Studies, Industry, Political Science, Water)
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:18 AM
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I remember it very well. I flew the return leg of the same flight exactly one year after the crash. The plane didn't fly for some reason and I was stranded in Paris for a day. The flight crew had the heebee jeebees. Not really confidence inspiring.

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Old 06-19-2013, 04:56 AM
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The idea that the fuel tank exploded was always bunk. Kerosene is not like gasoline. It doesn't produce explosive vapors.
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The story is now on Yahoo and Google news, whereas a few hours ago you had to do a search for it and typically found only old articles and Wikipedia stuff.


TWA Flight 800 Investigators Claim the Official Crash Story Is a Lie
By Dashiell Bennett | The Atlantic Wire – 1 hr 59 mins ago
TWA Flight 800 Investigators Claim the Official Crash Story Is a Lie
Quote:
The final NTSB reported said that faulty wiring connected to a central fuel tank caused a blast that destroyed the fuesalage, however, there were still many skeptics and conspiracy theorists who have long doubted that official story. In one particularly famous example, Pierre Salinger, a former Press Secretary for President John Kennedy and reporter for ABC News, claimed he'd seen proof that the U.S. Navy shot down the plane and then covered it up.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
The idea that the fuel tank exploded was always bunk. Kerosene is not like gasoline. It doesn't produce explosive vapors.
What I am trying to say is that under normal temps and conditions, it does not produce explosive vapors. Normal operating conditions on an aircraft shouldn't produce an explosive fuel/air mixture. The vapor pressure is too low.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:31 AM
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This is a very interesting story based on the events of July 17, 1996. Well worth reading, even if you're not a conspiracy buff.

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Old 06-19-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
The idea that the fuel tank exploded was always bunk. Kerosene is not like gasoline. It doesn't produce explosive vapors.
This is exactly right. I worked for Boeing at the time (and had nothing to do with any of the investigation) but paid attention to this Flt 800 stuff. At one point early in the investigation, Boeing engineers went on record as saying that there was no way fuel vapor in the center fuel tank could be made to explode.

They even did a test where they took a spare tank, added the approximate amount of fuel in the tank and then added an ignition source and they couldn't get it to ignite.

That was the last we ever heard about that. In the end, the official report said that the center fuel tank exploded.

I'm not jumping on the conspiracy theory bandwagon, but I trust the engineers more than I trust the politicians.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
The idea that the fuel tank exploded was always bunk. Kerosene is not like gasoline. It doesn't produce explosive vapors.
It does if it gets above it's flash point of 125 degrees F (jet A) but that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances.
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Originally Posted by sammyg2 View Post
It does if it gets above it's flash point of 125 degrees F (jet A) but that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances.
That is what I was inelegantly trying to say. The temp in the Fuel tank should not have been above the flash point of Jet-A. If it was, then there was something else serious going on.

By comparison, the flashpoint for gasoline can be as low as -45F.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:07 AM
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`I was still on active duty in the Air force flying C5's when the "accident" occured and after rtirement in 1999 I worked for Boeing at a 747 training center for 9 years. Myself and a lot of others,that were fluent with the 747 classic,felt (unoffically) that a 'spark" in the center fuel tank was total BS. Uh yea Red -beard,,, jet A will explode, as will hydraulic fluid if vaporized. But that didn't happen... We'll see .....but I'm bettin we will never know the truth.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:20 AM
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Yup, it aint easy to get jet A to burn.
It has to be above 125 F, it has to be between around .7% and 5% mixture in air, and it needs a fairly robust ignition source.


Compare that to pure hydrogen, it's hard to keep that stuff from burning.
Old 06-19-2013, 08:23 AM
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Edgar,

I was a Gas Turbine engineer for many years. For the old GE units, the #2 would need about 1200-1400 psi to create the fine mist. Later, we used compressed air to atomize the liquid fuels.

Under the existing circumstances for an empty fuel tank at take off even in July at JFK, the tank would not have had explosive vapors.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sammyg2 View Post
Yup, it aint easy to get jet A to burn.
It has to be above 125 F, it has to be between around .7% and 5% mixture in air, and it needs a fairly robust ignition source.

Compare that to pure hydrogen, it's hard to keep that stuff from burning.
Tell me about it. I had to design purge systems for coal gasification fuel systems for gas turbines in the 1990s. You can't purge with air, until after you've purged with something else! They used either CO2 or Nitrogen. My solution was to use methane.

The flammability limit on methane is 20 to 1 (air to methane) on the low end to about 4-5 to 1 on the high end.

Hydrogen is 20 to 1 on the low end and 1 to 20 on the high end! It burns in almost any condition. Very dangerous to attempt to use as a motor fuel!
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rcooled View Post
This is a very interesting story based on the events of July 17, 1996. Well worth reading, even if you're not a conspiracy buff.

loved the ending even more..

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Old 06-19-2013, 08:55 AM
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Tell me about it. I had to design purge systems for coal gasification fuel systems for gas turbines in the 1990s. You can't purge with air, until after you've purged with something else! They used either CO2 or Nitrogen. My solution was to use methane.

The flammability limit on methane is 20 to 1 (air to methane) on the low end to about 4-5 to 1 on the high end.

Hydrogen is 20 to 1 on the low end and 1 to 20 on the high end! It burns in almost any condition. Very dangerous to attempt to use as a motor fuel!
Zackly, the worst part about H2 is the LEL to HEL spread. That stuff will burn super rich or super lean, it just doan care.
We use up about 70 million scuffs of it a day here at 2000 psi and it makes me nervous.
Old 06-19-2013, 10:59 AM
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If the Navy shot it down on purpose, why not do so much farther out where no landlubbers could see it and recovery was so quick? If by accident, WTF? How can they even think of conducting tests near a busy civilian flight path? Even N. Korea gives warnings for ships to steer clear of the LZ radius. Why did anyone believe the fuel spark theory would fly? Wouldn't it have happened many times before if that were the true cause?
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:29 AM
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Zackly, the worst part about H2 is the LEL to HEL spread. That stuff will burn super rich or super lean, it just doan care.
We use up about 70 million scuffs of it a day here at 2000 psi and it makes me nervous.
That is WAY over the auto-ignition pressure. Keep them pipes leak free!
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
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In the early reporting of the incident, there were two witnesses who were boating in that area (south of Long Island), and they both reported seeing a missile flying up from the surface and hitting TWA 800.

Those witnesses were silenced pretty quickly.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
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Ever hear of the USS Scorpion?

I certainly don't know what caused the demise of 800 but I tend to view the information our government provides us with skepticism. That's only prudent IMO.

The USS Scorpion Buried at Sea
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:40 AM
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