The most contentious topic that you won't see in PARF
 

I'm in the market for an E46 M3 after my old one got rear-ended.

My old one was a 6MT (6-speed manual transmission). 90% of the cars out on the market are SMG (sequential manual gearbox). Which do you prefer? This topic has been endlessly debated on the E46 forums, although I wonder if the tone of the discussion will eventually change as these cars get older and have more SMG issues?

There's a car I'm considering, but it's an SMG, and I'm afraid that some day it will turn into a maintenance nightmare. OTOH, when driving in traffic, the 6MT is a sciatica nightmare.

Drove a few SMG's and the manual shift mode was terrible imho.

The DSG on the VW was pretty smooth, but it does require a fairly expensive service every 40K miles (though may be DIY). I was die-hard stick guy until my moto accident. I went back to stick after I healed but ended up going back to DSG a few years ago. Given the amount of driving in LA traffic I now do, I gladly ordered the 8 speed auto on the X1 that is on a boat now.

That isn't the SMG but rather a traditional auto. Not lightning fast but was ok in test drives. I did order paddle shifters but frankly doubt I'll use them much. In my GTI, the sport mode was faster around the track than manual shifting. Pretty damn slick - rev matched downshifts and everything automatically.

Hands down get the manual on a car of that vintage. That's what we all grew up with. If nothing else, my prediction is that all the 6 speed versions will hold their value better,

G

I have to say Ive changed my opinion on these semi autos.....I bemoan the loss of the skill, the heel/toe technique that marked a driver...but the fact is that these things are smarter than the driver, look after the car better and are faster across the road.

The new GT3, as we all know, only comes with the DSG box....

Long term ownership, who knows....I recall that generation M3 got of a caning over that particular box too.

SMG is not the same thing as DSG or PDK. SMG is a clunky robot that operates the clutch for you. PDK and DSG are dual-clutch gearboxes with seamless shifts. SMG has just one clutch and isn't as good as the Lambo independent shift rod setup.

Yeah, fair enough- Im acronym challenged, and off the OPs topic (M3). But these new dual clutch arrangements are pretty amazing.

Clunky my ass. After having mine a week and getting used to the shift parameters I can drive my SMG E46 M3 smoother than a manual. Not only smoother but faster as well. The people who crap on about the SMG have not owned one long term. If you can't get used to an SMG then you can't drive. I thought it was crap on a test drive but like I said, long term, I love it.
The SMG clutch will wear slower than a manual, it will never crunch gears and you will never miss that upshift nor will you over-rev and grenade on a downshift. Mine has 140,000kms on it and has never missed a beat.

Forgot to mention that probably the best M3 ever made, the E46 CSL was SMG.

It seems a lot of newer autos have "issues"... That's a good enough reason not to have one IMO.

As long as people keep buying crap there's no reason for the manufactures to make a better trans.
Not that long ago they were almost bullet proof... Then they got all clever and as a consequence unreliable. :rolleyes:

While it sounds like dewolf has had good luck with his, the SMG does have some expensive common issues as well as expensive servicing. They are also far more difficult to DIY, and in many cases have far shorter clutch life. I had the Ferrari F1 box in my Maserati coupe and HATED it. It was clunky around town, the auto mode was terrible and ate clutches rapidly, it basically ruined the car. It was awesome when really pushing the car hard, which never happens short of a track.

Frankly I just like being in control of the car, which you aren't with an SMG. Long live the manual transmission.

I've had both. A 2004 330i with SMG and currently a 2002 M3 6MT. The SMG on the 330 only had 4 shift programs, (sport or normal plus manual or auto shift) but from what i understand, the underlying systems were basically the same. I've been driving MT cars on the street since 1980 and I never found the SMG to be clunky because I drove like the MANUAL TRANSMISSION that it is. Even in auto mode, once I learned its shift points, I would manage the throttle during upshifts. The result was predictable and smooth shifting. I drove in Sport+Manual 99.98% of the time, so I had full control of the shift points and reasonably quick shifts. I'd use auto on highway trips so it could shift between 5th & 6th in cruise control when necessary.

It was just what I needed as a track noob. Once less thing I had to worry about during the very steep learning curve that comes with HPDE beginner group.

It did, however, leave me stranded once. I was heading out to Summit Point on a Friday night for an HPDE weekend when I downshifted to 5th to pass some traffic on I66W and then got stuck in that gear. Wouldn't go to 6th or 4th. I was about 20 miles from my house and managed to find a cloverleaf ramp so I could turn around and head back into town. I made it to within 2 blocks of my house before traffic slowed me to the point that the engine bogged down (<20mph in 5th gear!). Had it towed to the dealership and they replaced the SMG pump under warranty. Never had a single problem in the subsequent 30K miles I drove the car after that.

The M3 smg has no real servicing as such apart from changing the oil in the box. You can change the pentosin hydraulic oil if you like but most people don't. It is the exact same gearbox as the manual. Sure things like changing the clutch is more involved but hey to me that's a trade off for a car that can be driven in auto mode as smooth as butter or in manual mode with faultless lightning fast changes. Like all hi-po cars they have some issues that get blown out of proportion much like the IMS Porsche issue. It is a well known fact in the M3 community that the SMG clutch lasts far longer than the normal manual. Clearly the F1 box in the Maser has very different programming to the BMW one.
How is it that you don't feel in control with the SMG? My M3 will let you do everything except destroy it and the engine. It shifts when I want, up or down, except if it's going to over-rev. In fact it will hold a gear on an incline so as not to labour the engine. Down an incline in auto mode it will drop down a gear to maximise engine braking. If you have not driven an E46 SMGII I'd suggest taking one for a drive.
Could you set the shift speed in the Maser like you can in the M3?

Fwiw my brother is selling a very low mileage m3 2004 cabrio with an SMG. He's south of u in SLO.

I believe that if you can't drive a 6MT car more smoothly than an SMG car (and I am only talking BMW E46 M3s here since that's my experience area) then you likely can't drive a manual very well overall.

The SMGs I've driven have some neat features. I like the challenge of trying to be smooth with them. But the fact of the matter is, it isn't sophisticated enough to match what I can do with my 6MT M3.

Now, I don't have a ton of useful talents or athletic skills. I can't drive a golf ball 250 yards, nor can I hit a 90 mph fastball. I can't even dance. But, I can sure drive a manual transmission. Heel-toe. Upshift, downshift with no clutch and no grinds, fast, smooth downshifts on the track. It is the only "muscle memory" skill I seem to possess.

Bottom line. You are worried you will regret the SMG. You know you won't regret the 6MT. If you buy the SMG, you will forever be justifying to yourself the purchase. What's that worth to you?

As an aside, since I started hot yoga my sciatica has entirely disappeared.

Same here. One of my current cars is a 1952 split-window bug with its original non-synchro transmission.

The only reason I'm even considering an SMG in the first place is because the car in question is a one-owner in a hard-to-find color with some cool options, like the sunroof delete.

My wife has been trying to get me to go; she does it a couple times a week.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375628335.jpg

I would go for the manual transmission except if I lived in a high density traffic area like LA or NYC. Where I live and where I drive my sporty car would always be manual transmission. Wife's and daughter's car auto trans. Yes I would think that sequential, pdk etc in the long run will entail higher service costs....

If that's the car it is a gorgeous colour. Mine is boring old silver with black interior. I am not sure the colour would sway me over the SMG, but the sunroof delete might.

Try hot yoga. Seriously. I can't believe the difference, and I've only been going a month. I go with my fiancee.

The two fastest cars at present in tarmac rally in Australia are the lambo and the audi ttrs, both have semi autos.

The trannies are very clever and change seamlessly up and down without upsetting the car, faster than any driver can. It'll be intersting to see if someone brings out a new GT3 to take it up to these things.

Im with you, manual trannie any day, but having recently driven a DSG VW Sirocco-which is basically the same car as the wifes manual Renault RS265 - same size weight, power, both FWD pocket rockets- the Sierra is quicker across the road. Semi autos are the future, like it or not. IMHO.

I agree that semi-autos are the future, but the SMGII is like the Windows 2.0 of the transmission world.

Yeah fair enough. That trannie got a lot criticism
.

Plus eleventy-billion . . .

I love a clutch. I have come to terms with the fact that a traditional manual transmission has run its course in supercars . . . and that I will likely become one of "those older men" who lament the demise of the manual transmission the way the older set laments the demise of the carburetor.

I'm an engineer. I look at it from a simple, single-minded perspective: Which one has more moving parts?

That's the one that requires more frequent, higher-cost maintenance and is more likely to break.

Again, anyone passing comment on the SMG had it long term? As soon as you get used to its idiosyncrasies you will start to think it ain't half bad. The thing that people don't do with these cars every 12 months or so is the SMG re-calibration. Get the BMW Inpa/Dis software and a laptop and you can do it yourself. You can also reflash the SMG software to CSL specs. And now we'll hear from people saying "see, now you need a computer to service it". A laptop and software is just another tool in the toolbox for modern cars. Just ask any 18 year old car nut.

Great philosophy!

Hmm, not sure which way I'd go. I'd certainly closely research the SMG.

I second the yoga. From what I've seen on this BBS, you're not afraid of physical work. I'm sure you're aware of the benefits of a regular workout or yoga. I began Crossfit 4 weeks ago and my flexibility and sleep have improved noticeably.

That yellow rig looks sweet.

I tend to agree with this ^.

However, if the car is maintained properly and the driver has above average driving skills ( I would think the SMG needs a driver with the right touch ), would you view it's reliability any differently? . But there's the rub. Like a really hot, high maintenance gf, great to look at but murder on one's sanity.

I suppose I'm reading too much into the whole thing.
I'd have to drive them and compare.

I still question the masculinity of guys who accept the automatic choke.

Parking sensors. Hand in your card.

Im seeing the basis of an association here...Automotive Curmudgeons, Inc.

Like I mentioned already - if nothing else, the 6 speed will hold its value much better due to all the guys like us. Watch for the same on the last GT3 with MT. Same happed on air cooled 911s etc.

G

I would look at which one requires the least skill from the operator when considering which is more likely to break. You can't get much simpler than a sliding gear three speed, but you should have seen what my grandmother could do to a Ford model A transmission.

You sound like one of the sissies with an electric starter and a synchronized transmission.

I went and drove the car today. This particular car has been very well maintained, and this SMG wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. There are aspects which are not obvious, and the UI really should have been run through UAT once or twice before release. For example "A" is the manual mode and "S" is the auto mode. Really?

That is actually telling you which way to move the shifter in order to get into that mode. If the car is in 'auto' mode the lcd display is showing 'S' it is telling you if you tap the lever across you will enter 'sport' mode. I dunno, I'm used to it now. If you lift off just a tad between gear changes like you do a manual you will notice the changes at slower speeds are just as good, if not better that a regular manual. However.....at maximum shift setting, S6, keep foot firmly planted and just flick the paddles for changes that are amazing.

I like M3s but I've always thought of them as the most abused used cars on the planet due to the fact that most of the original owners are rich teenagers, at least around here.

Why are you obsessed with BABY POO YELLOW?

Seriously - that's a pretty ****ty color. And have a ****ty transmission on top of it?

G

It is a little different in the Bay Area, I think. I do understand what you mean though - it is the Mustang GT of Beverly Hills!

G

I liked your last one. I was looking for a long time for an Imola Red 6SP that wasn't wasted.

I gave up.

rjp

Two of my tractors still use a hand crank to start.

It took me some getting used to it but I really like it. I've been daily driving my E46 M3 SMG for about a year now and it's a great car.

I think the F1 box in the Maserati was more like the SMG1 BMW box. There was an auto, manual, and sport mode, that's it.

As for control, your above note says it all. Ultimately the computer controls what you can and can't do, not the driver. I can shift directly from 2nd to 5th, I can hold a hill with my clutch, I can put the car in whatever gear I want to, I can roll start on a hill if my starter dies (has happened), I can easily change my own clutch, and I have to be smart enough to NOT put the car into 1st at 80 MPH. My biggest pet peeve is a silly one, but I HATE having to look at a stupid LCD display to tell what gear I am in. All I need with a manual gearbox is my hand on the shifter.

To each his own, and I'll be the first to admit that an SMG or DSG box is much faster to shift and better in a track car. But for rewarding, involving, fun driving that actually takes a little bit of skill, I'll take a real manual all day long. Looks like 86% of our old farts agree.:)