While we are visiting my bench...
 

THIS walked in the door the other day for a dent to be removed. No makers marks at all. Only markings are KRUPP steel on the barrels. Germanys finest barrel maker. All the proof marks say it was made in Germany in the 50's. I have never seen anything like it. There is a horn lever under the barrels that acts as the fore end. Moving the lever to the left allows the barrels to move forward and drop down to load. Closing the lever returns the barrels and cocks the action. The "bow tie" on top of the action is the safety and a sight. If it points down the axis it is in safe, if it is parallel to the action it is in fire. 100% coin relieved, not engraved. The under lever, trigger guard, and butt plate all are made from horn. At first I thought it was a Belgian under lever gun. Called a LaFucette (sp). No not even close. It screams Germany everywhere. Also there is a trap door storage compartment in the toe of the stock. There are 4 spaces. Two for 16 gauge shot shells, and two more FOR RIFLE SHELLS!!! Too bad the other set of barrels are missing! If any of you have any ideas as to who made this I welcome any resources. As close as I can come is that it is a "bespoke" or one off gem.

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Notice how even the hidden screws are timed perfectly. This is a high end gun.

Sweet!!!

Now where's my hacksaw?

Wow! Great stuff! Plenty of marks on that steel!

Are you saying you didn't clock those screwheads?

these pics are of the gun as it is from the original maker. I have not touched it other than removal of a small dent in the left barrel. awesome huh?

I will ask around. I have no idea.

The German Gun Collectors Association has a website and forum.

I see a "Suhl" stamp on there and that's a pretty famous gun factory town in eastern Germany where they also made Makarovs. It's near Erfurt. JP Sauer & Sohn and Merkel were there. My guess is this is one of those.

I'm leaning toward Merkel.

Merkel: Guns

Nice... I would pay a lot of money for something like that.

The rifle barrels are probably rusting away in a barn in Europe somewhere :(

Indeed, what Rich says. Suhl narrows it down somewhat. I don't think it is Merkel. I don't think Merkel is old enough.

If it's not Merkel, it has to be JP Sauer & Sohn. That's sort of like a real original SIG.

No expert but did a little searching and found indeed, what Rich says. Suhl narrows it down somewhat. I don't think it is Merkel. I don't think Merkel is old enough. Suhl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, the 11.15 x 60 is an 11 mm black powder Mauser caliber? I am confused what 50s you speak of. The gun is too old for 1950s and too new for 1850s.

The proof marks show a big eagle, that's the Reichsadler. German 1892 proof rules and tables - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com
Just looking at that document, I'd guess this thing was made in the 1890s. The Reichsadler was used in the Weimar Republik and Nazi Germany but looked different (more abstract) later.

I would search for Suhl gunmakers in that era and you should be able to narrow it down quickly. Also consider the possibility that it was modified from a drilling?

Keep us posted. Cool gun!

G

Anybody willing to put a price on it?

The crown with the S underneath is for "Schrot" - shot - indicating that it is tested for shot.

G

Marks
 

Is that an "18" in a circle on the barrel in the 4th picture? If so, it could indicate an 18gauge bore x 2 1/2" shell which should come out somewhere close to the 11mm x 60mm mark. Whoever did the woodwork/inletting was certainly a master at his craft! I have seen this type of action before, but can't remember where or what it is. It will come to me eventually (maybe!).

I knew if I put you hounds on the trail I would come up with something. This is all good stuff. I offered him $1000.00 for it and he turned me down. Family gun.

I'm thinking it's an I. Meffert. The action and engraving are very much alike as well as well as the use of horn. I. Meffert also made the underlever style action.
It could also be a E. Schmidt & Habermann. They were in Suhl. This is not your commoners gun, certainly no JP Sauer & Sohn or Merkel.

Whatever it is, beautiful.

Thanks for sharing. These are my favorite threads.

Ok here is what I get from all the markings on the barrel flats.

Crown/W- choked barrel
Crown/U- final proof approved
Crown/S- Smooth bored
Suhl- proof house location
16 circled- general bore size
16/1- bore diameter range
435 - date of proof code- 4/35 or April 1935

So Suhl is just where the barrels were proofed, not an indicator of where the gun was made. Keep in mind these are Krupp steel barrels, the highest possible quality steel in it's day. Not for "Po Folks".

are we having fun here?

David,

Glad to see you're keeping amused.

Thanks again for a great glimpse into the craftsmanship which went into some of these devices.
I love it!

Best
Les

Pre-1917 imperial proof marks. Suhl: Merkel?

Nope. It has nitro barrels. That puts it after 1890 or so. The proof code says 1935 on the barrels. Unless they have been re-proofed on that date I'm going with 1935. Suhl proof house. I don't think they made the gun, but I'm looking into it.

The mystery has been solved. It's a Collath Nouvelle page 0
It originally was a cape gun with a twist shotgun tube and a cast rifle barrel. It was re barreled in 1935 by LK(Louis Kelber) of Suhl, a famous barrel maker, in 16 ga. nitro proofed as a SXS. Seems Collath had their own calibers as well.

How did you find out?

What is the plan?

The brain trust on the double gun journal board identified it. There is no plan. I removed the dent in the barrel and gave it back to it's owner last week, I sent him the facts on it after the fact. It was nice to have for a while. I'm on to other projects now. I have a Lefever nitro 16, a Parker, and a 1850's W. Richards in for restorations, along with finishing up an insurance deal from a house fire.

Okay once again, not a gun guy speaking here; I hope you can bear with me if I'm being ignorant beyond words -

So originally this was a side by side with a rifle barrel and a shotgun barrel (edit, tube)? Is/was that common? Would it be difficult to site the rifle in this configuration?

There are no stupid questions, and I am a very patient man. It was originally a cape gun. SXS configuration, but one barrel was a shotgun (smooth bore) and one barrel was a rifle barrel. Very common in Germany as there are no "seasons" all game is open at one time. So you were prepared for the bird as well as the buck. One gun, two different purposes. They also had guns called "drillings" that were a SXS shotgun with a single rifle barrel under but between the two barrels. Both guns are still made, but very pricey as you can imagine. This gun was re-barreled in 1935 as as a SXS shotgun only. The new barrels could use the new nitro powder which made the old cape barrels obsolete.

Combination gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I learn about things like this, I realize that Ecclesiastes had it right when he wrote of nothing new under the sun.

These combinations are wild!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378263830.jpg

Thanks, David!

as far as sighting, the barrels are made to converge at a set distance and had open sights. You tried to be at that distance to make your shot. Cape guns, drillings and double rifles ( SXS both barrles being rifled) are usually made for short distances and were BIG calibers.500 nitro special and the likes. The African safari hunters that use double rifles with open sights are REAL men/hunters. Nerves of steel and huge balls.

Plus, plenty of time spent learning their equipment, I would hazard?

no doubt.

IMHO the Drilling is foremost used for driven hunts when it isn't clear what's going to run out of the brush and where running shots are taken. (The Drilling is not a very precise rifle, considering that its barrel is soldered with the other barrels that stay cold.) In the US many small and large game species are open to hunt at the same time as well, but a rifle/shotgun combo gun has never been very popular, because we do not have these type of driven hunts.

G

point well made..

The Savage 24 is a good turkey gun with a center fire .22 over a 12 gauge. A model 24 in .22 rimfire over a 20 or .410 makes an excellent 1st gun, and a handy small game weapon.

Those are getting pricey these days.

Yep, everything that shoots is getting pricey. Very cool to see what you're working on, couldn't be in better hands, and crazy to compare it to a Savage M-24.