The Cost of Carbon

[RWebb]

carbon fiber that is (CO2 in the atmosphere is a different, but related topic - related because light wt. design with CF increases fuel mileage, and thus CO2 emissions)


the cost of CF keeps going down...

this little puppy is only 1/4 million (sounds like a lot but it IS a Supercar; and IS 1/4 the price of their last supercar)




Then there is the new BMW - only ~~$40k. It doesn't seem very sporty but wait until BMW cranks up their new CF plant in Washington state to use CF in other models.

Lighter

Faster

Stronger

[Don Ro]

.
k

[masraum]

That McLaren is HOT.

[nota]

raw carbon is down

but the system is still costly
epoxies resin is high
vacuum bagging and baking ovens
molds and skilled labor to make them

and raw carbon is weak and heavy
compared to carbon nano tubes [ hollow diamonds ]

[nota]

still want a 1000 lbs car
mid eng open two seater

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by nota

still want a 1000 lbs car
mid eng open two seater

It can be done. It would be like a stretched FSAE car though. Or maybe a Formula Ford.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by nota

still want a 1000 lbs car
mid eng open two seater

Arial Atom my friend...http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ariel-Atom-2-Blow-doors-off-your-neighbors-car-BUY-NOW-2007-Ariel-Atom-Supercharged-/141060604568?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20d7de0298

[M.D. Holloway]

I would like to do a total cost analysis of carbon fiber v. metal. It would take a bit or research but may prove very interesting. Me thinks its a question of scale economies...

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by nota

still want a 1000 lbs car
mid eng open two seater

Thats a 4 wheeled motorcycle, not a car.

[Don Ro]

I had a 2012 Husky 511 that weighed 249 lbs.

[intakexhaust]

CF bikes produced in asia are WAY cheaper too. Is that due to labor there or raw material?

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

CF bikes produced in asia are WAY cheaper too. Is that due to labor there or raw material?

Labor... Although the Chinese are producing really cheap high quality CF now.

[RWebb]

McLaren achieved their 75% cost savings via new fabrication techniques. A co. called Fiberfab (started or run by Amory Lovins) had earlier found a way to automate some of the manf. albeit at lower strength. These reduce the high input for skilled labor.

BMWs new plant in Washington is going to crank out a LOT of material - they will then ship to Germany for assembly or maybe panel fab. - or maybe to SC?

The BMW (while ugly) brings CF down to a whole new level.

As with other manf. products, economies of scale start to kick in more and more as unit volume goes up. I am seeing articles now about Ti and CF on investment websites & magazines. So, at least some think there is much more potential ahead.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by RWebb

McLaren achieved their 75% cost savings via new fabrication techniques

McLaren also benefited hugely from the manufacturing methods developed from the Porsche Carrera GT project. The same methods are also being used on the Porsche 918

Carbo Tech is the company behind build both the McLaren and Porsche chassis's, they are easily the best in the world. Not bad for what started out as a small Austrian company.

BMW I would say lead the world in high production carbon fibre manufacturing for the general automotive road cars.

As for nano tube technology, I have yet to see this bring any great impovements to the performance of carbon fibre structures. It is more of a sale gimmick than a technology leap.

[RWebb]

can you post any details
of the manf. methods?

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

McLaren also benefited hugely from the manufacturing methods developed from the Porsche Carrera GT project. The same methods are also being used on the Porsche 918

Carbo Tech is the company behind build both the McLaren and Porsche chassis's, they are easily the best in the world. Not bad for what started out as a small Austrian company.

BMW I would say lead the world in high production carbon fibre manufacturing for the general automotive road cars.

As for nano tube technology, I have yet to see this bring any great impovements to the performance of carbon fibre structures. It is more of a sale gimmick than a technology leap.

The nano tubes are still in the lab. But they are making parts of a useful size that use the nanotubes to "cross link" the traditional PAN derived carbon fibers and improve the interlaminar shear strength and inhibit crack growth. Or at least that is my understanding. They are trying to improve mechanical strength via "doping" with small amounts of the nanotubes, while gaining thermal and electrical conductivity benefits as a bonus.

[Flieger]

They also can be used to add damping: Army Uses Carbon Nanotubes to Improve Helicopter Rotor Blade Performance :: Defense Tech Briefs

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by RWebb

can you post any details
of the manf. methods?

Leave it with me as I want to double check my understanding of how the process works and I'll see what facts I can post up

Originally Posted by Flieger

The nano tubes are still in the lab

Yes you are right but they are so small they can't find where they left them

High production composite manufacturing is a field of engineering I would really like to be involved with some day but think that ship has sailed and I have missed it

The drive to reduce automotive emissions by saving weight will push the material costs and manufacturing times down. This field of engineering along with rapid prototype metal manufacturing methods is going to be the place to be if you are an automotive engineer interested in changing the world.

I have been involved in high performance automotive composite design and manufacturing since 1989 and find the more I know, the more I don't know.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by RWebb

can you post any details
of the manf. methods?

I believe the McLaren chassis is manufacturered by using RTM, (resin transfer moulding) which basically means layers of dry 3-d shaped or pre-formed woven carbon fabric are manually placed into a multi-piece steel mould, other mould sections are then hydraullically moved to close and trap the fibres before resin is then injected into the cavity and finally cure into a rigid part.

I think McLaren along with the Austrian company that actually does the manufacturing are the first to develop RTM hoolow sections instead of just flat parts like the BMW M3 roof panel.

One neat design feature of the McLaren is the same chassis is used for the MC spyder and coupe models but with a rood section added to the coupe. I think they even use the same basic design of chassis for the P1 hyper car but I'm guessing with some modifications to house the KERS batteries.

The plus points for RTM are its a much faster and less expensive production process but the down side being the structure is not as light or stiff as a manually laminated part cured in an autoclave.

[RWebb]

thanks - I hope eventually we will see struts made with cross-sectional supports in them

like bird bones

I cannot think of how you could do that well except by either growing them under stress or using nano-robots, neither of which is in the offing