Proof

adrian jaye · 08-12-2002, 01:20 PM

I put forward the propsition....

There is no proof that God exist's
also
There is no proof that God does not exist.

If you can not "prove" somthing you can not disprove it either
ergo

God does Exist

QED

Barber Dave · Barber Dave's Garage

I live with the only proof of God's existence I need, wife son and daughter, trees ,grasss ,flowers, sun, rain,snow. To me this is all the proof I need. All of this couldn't have just happened,there had to be some guiding force . Call it what you like,GOD, ANY OTHER NAME YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH,IT'S THERE EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY.

JUST MY 2 cents Dave

Planter91C2 · 08-13-2002, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adrian jaye
I put forward the propsition....

There is no proof that God exist's
also
There is no proof that God does not exist.

If you can not "prove" somthing you can not disprove it either
ergo

God does Exist

QED

using your logic:

I put forward the proposition....

There is no proof that you are gay
also
There is no proof that you are not gay.

If you cannot "prove" something you cannot disprove it either
ergo

You are gay

QED

just kidding adrian jaye, just wanted to point out how silly this exercise in logic is.

adrian jaye · 08-13-2002, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barber Dave
I live with the only proof of God's existence I need, wife son and daughter, trees ,grasss ,flowers, sun, rain,snow. To me this is all the proof I need. All of this couldn't have just happened,there had to be some guiding force . Call it what you like,GOD, ANY OTHER NAME YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH,IT'S THERE EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY.

JUST MY 2 cents Dave

Sweet !
and no doubt you thank him every day !

peace

adrian jaye · 08-13-2002, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Planter91C2

using your logic:

I put forward the proposition....

There is no proof that you are gay
also
There is no proof that you are not gay.

If you cannot "prove" something you cannot disprove it either
ergo

You are gay

QED

oooops,
I can proove I am not gay, simply by the fact that we can comunicate with each other, either, verbally,be e-mail, or letter.

You ask me if I am gay, I then sy no I'm not,
wether you choose to believe me is something else.

When was the last time you recived a reply from God ?
or what peice of apparatus did you use to try and detect his presence or non/presence?

just kidding adrian jaye, just wanted to point out how silly this exercise in logic is.

yep I know,
I don't think it's silly

and as you've still not disprooved that he exist's,
it still stands

peace

Milu · 09:05 AM

Sorry Adrian your reasoning is fallacious.

A point here, a point there, and then we're winging it with the dragons on Magic Mountain.

My religious views are my own, I respect those of others but I do not like to see iffy reasoning used to defend anything, especially the metaphysical.

1) Cannot prove God exists..............OK

2) Cannot prove God does not exist............OK

(We shall skip over the fact that more experienced theologians and philosophers than me and possibly you have attempted both,
Thomas Moore, (or am I thinking of Thomas Aquinas, seven incontrovertible proofs for the existence of God?), and Bertrand Russell come to mind and on the whole I feel Bertrand Russell's reasoning has the edge)

3) If you cannot prove something, you cannot disprove it........... A little simplistic and not necessarilly so.

4) "Ergo God exists".........SORRY DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW YOU MADE THIS LEAP IN LOGIC!

However, if you believe the reasoning is correct then Planter91C's tongue in cheek response to your post is also correct and your rebuttal is only you denying it, not a valid logical argument.

island911 · 08-15-2002, 06:39 PM

IF you "prove" gods existence. . .you dissolve the need for faith.

Think about that; you faithless heathen you

Doug Zielke · 08-17-2002, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
IF you "prove" gods existence. . .you dissolve the need for faith.

Think about that; you faithless heathen you

I'll drink to that, Rev. Glenn!

adrian jaye · 08-17-2002, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
IF you "prove" gods existence. . .you dissolve the need for faith.

Think about that; you faithless heathen you

I don't need it proved

both by my orginal statement and the fact that I ain't no heathen (accepting your wink) also too much "isht" has happened to me to believe otherwise

adrian jaye · 08-17-2002, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milu

and then we're winging it with the dragons on Magic Mountain.

Sorry dont do drug's

My religious views are my own, I respect those of others

peace !

4) "Ergo God exists".........

"I believe God is 'really there,' of course, because he has revealed himself to all men *generally* by creation and providence, that is to say, all men already have an awareness of God (sensus deitatis) by virtue of his divine image within them and his revelation of himself both in nature and in his providential dealings with his world, *propositionally* in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, *personally* in his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and *savingly* through the work of his Word and Spirit..."

However, if you believe the reasoning is correct then Planter91C's tongue in cheek response to your post is also correct and your rebuttal is only you denying it, not a valid logical argument.

The last time I looked up at the heaven's and yelled up at God and asked him to tell me the answer to life the universe and everything, I got no answer, or at least none that I heard or understood.

Last time someone asked me if I was gay, I very clearly put them right ! including PLanter's tongue in cheek comment, which I also understood as Tongue in cheek

Best Line from the Simpsons, quoting Homer, kneeling at his bed praying to God

"Dear God,
If you want me to eat these milk and cookies, give me no sign,
thank you, yours sincerely Homer Simpson"

Milu · 08-22-2002, 05:33 AM

Why Adrian, what a charming reply!

However, the logic of your original proposition did not hold water.

When you could not continue your argument on the basis of reason you jumped to an argument based on faith.

I am happy that your beliefs are a source of joy, comfort and satisfaction to you. If the mental cogitations you are posting amplify these feelings I am sure I am only pleased for you. I respect peoples religious and philosophical beliefs whether based on reason or faith. I confess I do have a problem when iffy reasoning is the start point and then that is abandonned in favour of blind faith.

If faith is enough to fuel your belief I can respect that,

I CANNOT RESPECT THE USE OF IFFY REASONING AND THEN WHEN THAT FAILS THE USE OF BLIND FAITH TO ARGUE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT. That approach is more suitable for the infant school playground-

I should know better than to discuss or debate religion or politics or to waste time arguing with children, fanatics, madmen and idiots. So go with God and may your God go with you.

adrian jaye · 08-22-2002, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milu
Why Adrian, what a charming reply!

Thank you or was that a

[charming] ??

However, the logic of your original proposition did not hold water.

disagree

When you could not continue your argument on the basis of reason you jumped to an argument based on faith.

nope I did'nt I said
"I believe God is 'really there,' of course, because he has revealed himself to all men *generally* by creation and providence, that is to say, all men already have an awareness of God (sensus deitatis) by virtue of his divine image within them and his revelation of himself both in nature and in his providential dealings with his world, *propositionally* in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, *personally* in his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and *savingly* through the work of his Word and Spirit..."

That's not a statement of faith.

I also said "I" don't need it prooved to "me" cos too much "isht" has happened for it to be otherwise, i.e. from my own observation's. Though [and being human], "proof" would be nice but is not entirely necessary.

I am happy that your beliefs are a source of joy, comfort and satisfaction to you.

kewl, everyday is another step I take. Somtimes backwards, somtiumes forwards and somtimes I just sit and wait.

If the mental cogitations you are posting amplify these feelings I am sure I am only pleased for you.

Not necessarily so but I'm am glad that your pleased for me. That really means a lot to me, honest, it really does.

No seriously, I'm not taking the piss or trying to be sarcastic I am.

I respect peoples religious and philosophical beliefs whether based on reason or faith. I confess I do have a problem when iffy reasoning is the start point and then that is abandonned in favour of blind faith.

yep,yep,yep,yep you said earlier.

If faith is enough to fuel your belief I can respect that,

Faith is a weird thing, sometimes you can have the utmost faith your car will start and other times it beggers belief that it won't !

Don't think anyone in history has ever had 100% faith a 100% of the time. Even Jesus lost heart a couple of times, maybe for just a few seconds but he did, thats probably 98% out of 98%, I doubt anyone can mangfe any better than 10% / 10%.

Be nice in "thoes" times to have some proof

I CANNOT RESPECT THE USE OF IFFY REASONING AND THEN WHEN THAT FAILS THE USE OF BLIND FAITH TO ARGUE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT.

I did'nt, I gave you 2 reasons both sides of the fence.

I should know better than to discuss or debate religion or politics or to waste time arguing with children, fanatics, madmen and idiots.

Time and tide waits for no man, except maybe for the guy who waded out onto a sandbank and didnt notice it coming in, I don't think he was any of the above.

So go with God and may your God go with you.

There is only one God.

Which as we both agree is prooved he exist's, I will

Maybe it's not so important that "We" believe in God but more important wether God believes in "Us".

peacz

Doug Zielke · 08-22-2002, 06:41 PM

Milu · 08-23-2002, 01:45 AM

"Oh Lord, protect me from your followers"

island911 · 08-23-2002, 11:33 AM

thanks

adrian; your logic . . . I would rather watch a dog chase its tail.

adrian jaye · 08-23-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milu
"Oh Lord, protect me from your followers"

Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed; he answers him from his holy heaven with the saving power of his right hand.

Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.

They are brought to their knees and fall, but we rise up and stand firm.

adrian jaye · 08-23-2002, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
thanks

adrian; your logic . . . I would rather watch a dog chase its tail.

woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof

Milu · 01:45 PM

Re "woof woof woof......................."

Congratulations Adrian. With your last post you finally get the point!!!!!

Your reasoning is quite like a dog chasing its own tail but without the merit of being mildly entertaining for a short period.

Please do not make assumptions about my beliefs as you have done. I specifically avoided stating them to keep on the topic which was your "proof". I have not stated that I am or am not Christian or even whether I do or do not believe in God or a God or Gods.

Similarly you wrote, "we both agree is proved he exists", another assumption.

If this is more than a mental exercise for you can I recommend:

any Jesuit treatise on reasoning and logic as a good start point to improve the construction of your argument, thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

In addition there is a book on Christian doctrine and interpretation called Apologetics. While written from a Roman Catholic perspective which may or may not be to your taste it will at least give you a sound basis for debate.

I would also recommend the writings of Bertrand Russel.

adrian jaye · 08-26-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milu
Congratulations Adrian. With your last post you finally get the point!!!!!

What, that I have a sense of humour ???

Your reasoning is quite like a dog chasing its own tail but without the merit of being mildly entertaining for a short period.

c above

Please do not make assumptions about my beliefs as you have done. I specifically avoided stating them to keep on the topic which was your "proof". I have not stated that I am or am not Christian or even whether I do or do not believe in God or a God or Gods.

I did'nt

Similarly you wrote, "we both agree is proved he exists", another assumption.

by your suposition

If this is more than a mental exercise for you can I recommend:

It is purely what it is. Nothing more, nothing less

any Jesuit treatise on reasoning and logic as a good start point to improve the construction of your argument, thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

Yawn

In addition there is a book on Christian doctrine and interpretation called Apologetics. While written from a Roman Catholic perspective which may or may not be to your taste it will at least give you a sound basis for debate.

There's already a book out, it's called the bible and whenever I need it interpretted theres a place I know that'll do it f.o.c

peace

island911 · 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by adrian jaye
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof
woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof

Hey, he's doing it again.
Someone should tell him "a dog chasing its own tail is mildly entertaining, but only for a short period. "