Charity/Welfare and compassion. Where is the line....?

[HardDrive]

First off, I plead with you to keep this thread civil. I posted it in the general forum because I would like to hear from as many people as possible. If you want to rant about political parties, then start your own thread in PARF.

In the past 10 years, I've made a huge effort to improve my spiritual life. I don't think my own path is of particular importance here, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about being more charitable, and I've turned that into action. I've worked in soup kitchens, held food drives, and tried to teach my daughter about having compassion for those with less.

But I have to say, this has not always led in the direction I had expected. I have found myself far less liberal that I used to be. And frankly, I've grown quite skeptical of many aid programs. But its a very mixed bag. And its confusing.

Do we want children to go hungry? No. Of course not. But what about a 25 year old able bodied man? Should he be given 3 meals a day by society? Should he be given a place to live?

On some level, I feel like you're robbing the 25 year old of something. I know it sounds cruel, but is it really the compassionate thing to do if you rob a person of the motivation to improve themselves?

We have millions of children growing up in the richest country in the world, and the message they are getting is pretty clear, 'failure IS an option'. Is that the right thing to do?

I feel like many of the things I was raised to believe are 'compassionate' as not compassion at all, they are enslavement.

And what about personal charity? At what point does helping someone out rob them of something? The more I look back on my childhood, the more I view my own upbringing as quite spoiled, at least from a financial perspective. And it was very corrosive. It was only when I was on my own and earning my own way in the world that I found I could gain some self respect.

I'm not asking for a single answer here, because I haven't really posted a single, cogent question. But I would love to know what you think about the subject.

When does one cross over the line from being compassionate to harming someone?

[GH85Carrera]

It is a very slippery slope. Once you give almost anything to a charity money wise they want your address and email. And they sell the list to other charities and the barrage starts. I wish there was a box to check that said NEVER contact me again on any donation. Once you are on the list you are on there forever.

For that reason alone I tend to give CASH to the Salvation Army. I don't give them my name or address and I don't take it off of my taxes. Don't waste the resources to mail junk to me.

One close friend died years ago. His asked for for no flowers, just donate to a cause he believed in. That cause has mailed me calendars, pens, and lots of junk over the years. I bet it cost more than my donation. It is a total waste on resources.

I helped out a family with some rent money and some presents for the kids at Christmas time. Then I heard them talking about a show HBO on their cable TV. They had cable TV but could not make rent payments?

I understand I have been very lucky. I had two parents that were married for over 50 years before they died. I learned how to WORK at an early age and I have had a job since I was 16 with just 5 days total of unemployment since then.

I will stick to the Salvation Army cash donations and feel good that that money will help more needy people any other other charity.

[Chocaholic]

We are building and rewarding a society of underacheivers and our position in the world reflects that. Our leadership works daily to redistribute the fruits of our labors. As such, I tend to feel that the federal and state taxes I pay precludes me from having much left to "donate".

Nothing burns me up more than watching EBT funded groceries loaded into a late model Escalade. Happy to help the needy, but in this country, they're not easy to identify from the lazy.

[wildthing]

Teach a man to fish.

[varmint]

the line should be in the constitution.

[Rot 911]

I do some volunteer work with juveniles. Most of them from low income/welfare families. It is discouraging to go to meetings and listen to the mothers talk about scamming the system by going from one food pantry to the next, getting money to help with utilities (while living in subsidized housing) and then selling the use of their EBT cards. They seem to take pride in who can scam the system the most. We are now on a 3rd generation of welfare recipients and sadly many of them think being on welfare is normal.

[sammyg2]

Over the years I've tried many different type of charity too, with varying amounts of success.

In my yoot I spent time volunteering at a school for the mentally handicapped where most but not all the folks had some sort of gift (savant type stuff).
It was tough. but I never really felt like i was making a difference, it felt more like putting in time and doing maintenance. I wasn't changing anything.

Later I figured I could help people who had fallen on hard times because of poor life choices.
Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime cliche.
Boy was I naive.
I joined up with a church group who dedicated themselves to helping people with drug habits clean themselves up, teach them some business skilz, get them some proper business attire, and help them get a job. I figured all they needed was some encourtagement, confidence, some help going the right direction.

That was the intent but all the cases I worked turned into train wrecks.
If they didn't steal from me they stole from friends of mine or from the church or from from companies we helped them get jobs with. They didn't want help, they wanted more drugs.

I became very disillusioned with people and my inadequacies of making a difference.
I did some voluteer work building school rooms on native American reservations.
In less than two years the buildings were demolished or burned to the ground. Again, people who didn't want help. Just money.

I helped build a school down in baja Mexico, that was very rewarding and they appreciated it and I felt like I had made a small difference there. We still send them packages once in a while. Clothes or shoes, old reading glasses, whatever.

I tried working to support the local missions feeding people at the holidays, but almost got mugged once and watched people show up for free meals in escalades with wheels and tires that'd feed a family for a year.

I got to the point where just writing checks to charity was good enough. Jaded to say the least.
I learned that large organized charities existed just to support their executive committees.
A good portion of the money I gave to the church went to helping folks, but it also went to buying more land to expand the church foot print.
I learned that many times what people really need is a swift kick in the rear, not a soft shoulder or someohne to make excuses for them.

Then I stumbled onto something that really, really made a difference.
I found out how to help people who really needed help, who couldn't help themselves, and who really appreciated the help.

Through the church I fould elderly couples or widows who were shut-ins.
I started visiting a couple times a month, running errands, buying groceries for them, buying medicine for them, doing things they couldn't do for themselves.
I do a little handyman work fixing plumbing or minor electrical stuff, whatever i can handle.
Sometimes the nicest thing I can do is just sit and visit with them. Talk to them, listen to them, let them know that they are important and that someone still cares about them. That'll take the hard edge off any heart.

For a few years we invited an eldery widow to spend Christmas with us.
Otherwise she'd be all alone.
Taking her home afterward was tough. She was crying from gratitude and despair, knowingt hat she had a family for a couple days but now she's going back to being all alone. She passed and we haven't mustered up the guts to do it again, it's hard.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Then I stumbled onto something that really, really made a difference.
I found out how to help people who really needed help, who couldn't help themselves, and who really appreciated the help.

Through the church I fould elderly couples or widows who were shut-ins.
I started visiting a couple times a month, running errands, buying groceries for them, buying medicine for them, doing things they couldn't do for themselves.
I do a little handyman work fixing plumbing or minor electrical stuff, whatever i can handle.
Sometimes the nicest thing I can do is just sit and visit with them. Talk to them, listen to them, let them know that they are important and that someone still cares about them. That'll take the hard edge off any heart.

For a few years we invited an eldery widow to spend Christmas with us.
Otherwise she'd be all alone.
Taking her home afterward was tough. She was crying from gratitude and despair, knowingt hat she had a family for a couple days but now she's going back to being all alone. She passed and we haven't mustered up the guts to do it again, it's hard.

Thank you for sharing. This past year, just was we were about to move out of Seattle to OH, our elderly neighbor passed away. His wife knew nothing about their affairs. He was was very secretive. I did everything I could to help her arrange their finances, but like you said, what really helped was just being there to talk to her. I'm going to look into opportunities to help elderly people here in OH as well.

[craigster59]

I usually don't donate to the larger charities except SA bellringers at Christmastime. I prefer to work with smaller groups, adopting a family at Christmas and personally delivering the presents. Sure, there have been some deadbeats (the parent), but kids should have something to play with on Christmas morning. You can usually tell by their wishlist how needy they are. Some ask for an Xbox (ain't gonna happen) and some just want a jacket or shoes.

Like Sammy stated, I have been thinking of doing things for the elderly like running errands, taking in a ballgame, etc. I think that's where I can make a difference.

[Iciclehead]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Over the years I've tried many different type of charity too, with varying amounts of success.

In my yoot I spent time volunteering at a school for the mentally handicapped where most but not all the folks had some sort of gift (savant type stuff).
It was tough. but I never really felt like i was making a difference, it felt more like putting in time and doing maintenance. I wasn't changing anything.

Later I figured I could help people who had fallen on hard times because of poor life choices.
Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime cliche.
Boy was I naive.
I joined up with a church group who dedicated themselves to helping people with drug habits clean themselves up, teach them some business skilz, get them some proper business attire, and help them get a job. I figured all they needed was some encourtagement, confidence, some help going the right direction.

That was the intent but all the cases I worked turned into train wrecks.
If they didn't steal from me they stole from friends of mine or from the church or from from companies we helped them get jobs with. They didn't want help, they wanted more drugs.

I became very disillusioned with people and my inadequacies of making a difference.
I did some voluteer work building school rooms on native American reservations.
In less than two years the buildings were demolished or burned to the ground. Again, people who didn't want help. Just money.

I helped build a school down in baja Mexico, that was very rewarding and they appreciated it and I felt like I had made a small difference there. We still send them packages once in a while. Clothes or shoes, old reading glasses, whatever.

I tried working to support the local missions feeding people at the holidays, but almost got mugged once and watched people show up for free meals in escalades with wheels and tires that'd feed a family for a year.

I got to the point where just writing checks to charity was good enough. Jaded to say the least.
I learned that large organized charities existed just to support their executive committees.
A good portion of the money I gave to the church went to helping folks, but it also went to buying more land to expand the church foot print.
I learned that many times what people really need is a swift kick in the rear, not a soft shoulder or someohne to make excuses for them.

Then I stumbled onto something that really, really made a difference.
I found out how to help people who really needed help, who couldn't help themselves, and who really appreciated the help.

Through the church I fould elderly couples or widows who were shut-ins.
I started visiting a couple times a month, running errands, buying groceries for them, buying medicine for them, doing things they couldn't do for themselves.
I do a little handyman work fixing plumbing or minor electrical stuff, whatever i can handle.
Sometimes the nicest thing I can do is just sit and visit with them. Talk to them, listen to them, let them know that they are important and that someone still cares about them. That'll take the hard edge off any heart.

For a few years we invited an eldery widow to spend Christmas with us.
Otherwise she'd be all alone.
Taking her home afterward was tough. She was crying from gratitude and despair, knowingt hat she had a family for a couple days but now she's going back to being all alone. She passed and we haven't mustered up the guts to do it again, it's hard.

So right on so many dimensions.

From suffering comes the motivation to do better.....remove the suffering and you remove much of the motivation.

Dennis

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Thank you for sharing. This past year, just was we were about to move out of Seattle to OH, our elderly neighbor passed away. His wife knew nothing about their affairs. He was was very secretive. I did everything I could to help her arrange their finances, but like you said, what really helped was just being there to talk to her. I'm going to look into opportunities to help elderly people here in OH as well.

This should stay in the open forum since there will be a wide base of religious and secular opinions, both valid assistance.

Well done HD...this is important stuff.

When I give my time to charity I have a very simple metric: The person(s) I am helping will devote as much time as I do and will be there with me. You can find the right organization, it is easy. One day a month, sometimes two. Not much but they dig me: Charity is to me personal and connected.

I give almost 5% of my income to charity, which is a lot, sorry. Mixed bag of recipients, mostly aimed at military/veterans groups, people who matter to me. My wife gives to Catholic Charities, a stellar bunch. Our hefty taxes aid and abet the rest.

As I get older and transition from business to semi-retirement, I plan on devoting more of my time to charity. Anyone can stroke a check. The real work is done as Sammy described.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

....When does one cross over the line from being compassionate to harming someone?

I wish I knew the answer to that one too

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

.....For that reason alone I tend to give CASH to the Salvation Army. I don't give them my name or address and I don't take it off of my taxes. Don't waste the resources to mail junk to me. ....

I understand I have been very lucky. ....

I will stick to the Salvation Army cash donations and feel good that that money will help more needy people any other other charity.

Same here...I disdain the United Way (despite the "some good" they might do. When I had a corporate gig, I'd donate a few hundred, but the recommended 2% of my salary (and seeing what the executives made)...my answer had something to do with "...and the horse they rode in on"

Originally Posted by wildthing

Teach a man to fish.

And they'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day?

Back to seriousness...kudos to all you guys HD, Kurt, Sammy et al....it's hard not to get jaded, just keep on keepin' on! My older sister has been "on the dole" for years....addicted to opiates to boot.

"Doctor prescribes, drug store supplies" - Mick and Keef

She can't possibly work in her physical condition, and hasn't been able to for years (on disability). If it weren't for my dad and I writing some substantial checks over the years, she wouldn't have a "nice place to live" and a "nice car" either, but I don't know if she is abusing the system or not...probably, but I dunno. If it weren't for the methadone clinic, I don't know how she'd deal with the pain, etc. and I have no idea how much that actually costs. Point being, she has a nice car and place to live, but that's not from her "abusing the system" either imo. This is a very subjective topic, and hits pretty close to home for me. I'd love to know the answers too. I do know one thing though...there are plenty of folks who absolutely need a helping hand...I wish I had more than two to offer at times. I'm glad I don't see (haven't been exposed to) the abuses you guys have...I'd hate to become jaded when compassion is called for. Touchy subject, great thread....thanks!

[LeeH]

Originally Posted by craigster59

Like Sammy stated, I have been thinking of doing things for the elderly like running errands, taking in a ballgame, etc. I think that's where I can make a difference.

I do this and sometimes find it hard to continue. The folks I drive truly seem to appreciate what I do. My personal "issue" is that most of the elderly people I help have family close by. Usually two earner families. Sometimes high income two earner families.

I just drove a woman to a doctor's appointment a couple of weeks ago who was bragging about how her daughter works very hard in her medical practice. Another is an Alzheimer's patient I've driven several times. She lives with her daughter's family. While they're off earning a living, I'm taking her to appointments. The kicker is that I've dropped her off at her home several times to have her 20 something grandson open the door to let her in.... TV blaring in the background. Car in the driveway.

[ossiblue]

One reason why you're confused (the OP) is because you're talking about three different things--charity, welfare, and compassion--and they are not necessarily related to each other. Compassion is a human emotion that is evoked by an individual under circumstances that have meaning only to that individual. Charity is an action towards an individual or group that an individual perceives as in need. Welfare, as used in the OP's context, is a social program which, by definition must establish broad rules and qualifications that trump personal responsibility of the contributor (taxpayer) to know the details of the individuals in the group, and it removes the welfare group members from responsibility and acknowledgement that they are, indeed, being assisted by a person of compassion and charity.

In the cases of compassion and charity, you, the OP, can and should make the decision as to whether or not your feelings or actions are correct. You either feel compassion for someone or you don't. If you have a doubt, then it's because you really don't know the situation of the person who seeks your charity or compassion.

Yes, it's not always practical to "know" the recipient of one's charity or compassion so we place them in a virtual group and paint that group with a broad brush that supports our ideals of what they are--poor, impoverished children, for example. Once that happens, however, we must allow for the broad brush strokes of the cheats and the lazy. Unless you actually know the situation of the recipient directly, you will forever wonder if your charitable gifts are beneficial or detrimental. An impossible task when dealing with a large society. For every real, tragic life that could use compassion and charity, there will be one which is a scam, fraud, or predator. Social programs (welfare) cast a large net and will draw in a large quantity of both types. Private charitable organizations cast a smaller net and can often weed out the fakes. Private, individual acts of charity help a very small amount of individuals but provide, generally, the best peace of mind if the donator knows the recipients situation.

[Bill Douglas]

I feel there is enough people already who care about people. Plus some of my tax money goes to etc...

So I give to the SPCA, SAFE and and especially an outfit called Cat's Protection League. They sell donated goods in an op' shop and the money is spent on neutering stray cats and feeding the stray cats.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

It was only when I was on my own and earning my own way in the world that I found I could gain some self respect.

When does one cross over the line from being compassionate to harming someone?

When one fails to understand that the most basic of mature human need, self worth, can't be given, it must be earned. Work is a good and fine thing, best learned early and often.

I just spent Parents Weekend at VMI with my son and father. They both will be/are products of two very hard military schools. They are 65 years apart in age. They laughed at each others stories like two brothers. They earned it.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by LeeH

I do this and sometimes find it hard to continue. The folks I drive truly seem to appreciate what I do. My personal "issue" is that most of the elderly people I help have family close by. Usually two earner families. Sometimes high income two earner families.

I just drove a woman to a doctor's appointment a couple of weeks ago who was bragging about how her daughter works very hard in her medical practice. Another is an Alzheimer's patient I've driven several times. She lives with her daughter's family. While they're off earning a living, I'm taking her to appointments. The kicker is that I've dropped her off at her home several times to have her 20 something grandson open the door to let her in.... TV blaring in the background. Car in the driveway.

This brings up the cliche, "charity begins at home." If the above families followed that concept, there would be no need for Lee's services, nor the services of some others who have posted here. Yet, we cannot make anyone be responsible for themselves, let alone for others in their family. For the good of those in need, regardless of why they are in need, charitable works are done.

[craigster59]

Another charity I work with is Project Healing Waters Project Healing Waters > Home

There are a lot of Vets who have injuries, PTSD, etc and there will be many more to come. Fly fishing is a big stress reliever for me and I figure if I can pass on some knowledge and get someone involved in a hobby that lasts a lifetime, it's a good thing. Besides, it's a great excuse to get out on the water!

[Instrument 41]

We give, wife and I to 2 groups, regarding charity. Widows/Widowers and single moms with kids provided that she is working. Sometimes we don't have money to give but there are so many needs that these 2 groups have that doesn't take money. Seems like every Thanksgiving and Easter we have guest that fall into these categories.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by craigster59

I usually don't donate to the larger charities except SA bellringers at Christmastime. I prefer to work with smaller groups, adopting a family at Christmas and personally delivering the presents. Sure, there have been some deadbeats (the parent), but kids should have something to play with on Christmas morning. You can usually tell by their wishlist how needy they are. Some ask for an Xbox (ain't gonna happen) and some just want a jacket or shoes.

Like Sammy stated, I have been thinking of doing things for the elderly like running errands, taking in a ballgame, etc. I think that's where I can make a difference.

A ball game .... that's so perfect.
I'm gonna run with that one.