P.A.R.F. - do we still need it?
 

I was just thinking how sad it is we cannot have legitimate discussions about Religion or Politics in the standard Off Topics forum, where there is more traffic and thus more opportunity for discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but it's my understanding we cannot do this because basically any tangible discussion of Religion and/or Politics turns quickly into denigrating and name calling rather than a healthy exchange of opinion and genuine debate.

I know our moderators have strengthened enforcement of forum guidelines to include temporary "vacations" and in some extreme cases permanent banning over at P.A.R.F. but the fact remains we still have a divided forum for Off Topics.

It's not really a big deal for me but I just thought I'd post my thoughts on the matter in case others feel the same (or different) way and wanted to chime in.

I also realize we don't make the rules....and I respect that.

yes.

No we don't need it... But if we didn't have it the children would parf all over here.

Its a necessary Evil..

What Sidney said.

But why couldn't we simply ban those who cannot follow forum guidelines.

They could just go keep Normy company. Life goes on...(no offense Normy) ;)

To me, it has nothing to do with what's in the threads, but the titles. It sucked to wake up and see that 80% of the thread titles in OT were politically related. The titles are very often infuriating as well. Then around campaign and election time! That's when things really get out of hand.

Exactly what dave said, I hate having to wade over a bunch of idiots arguing to find the interesting stuff thats being said. We could pull out banchete and start hacking them down at the base, but I just don't see that being good for overall forum moral. Leave them a place to spout their crazy, and for the most part they stay over there.

In the last month or so Z and Nostatic have gotten very strict with the bannings, and the attacks out here in OT have gotten much better.

I'm not interested in the politics of others. Leave it as it is.

I love p a r f it really gives you an idea of diverse and different this place is. I like to play the guess who's going to be on what side of the issue game!

Trust me. It's better this way.......Don't have to scan all that BS from idiots like we did in years past......

I enjoy it until people start getting with the nasty comments. Polite, civil discourse is a good thing. Some here really don't know when to quit.

I don't think I've ever set foot in there and don't plan to either.

I set up a virtual travel agency to 'Beautiful Ban Island'.

Business is really booming. Quite a few frequent fliers.... :cool:


I'm offering a two for one special this month.


KT

Yup. Me either. From everybody's description of it, it doesn't sound very interesting at all. Yes, Baz, discussion is good but it doesn't sound like its good discussion. I'll pass...

Excellent! I´ll get back to you when I need that ticket. :D

''f***ing Ted Nugent...''

''..jeez, f'in liberals.....''

That's a bit fluffy ;)

Yes, we need it. The regular OT board was pretty trashy before the creation of PARF. It's pretty civil here now, unless the topic of cars running on anything but gas/diesel is raised.

I could take this a step further, Baz. Why do we need OT? We could just post whatever topic we wanted in the various technical forums. Wouldn't that be fun (to moderate)? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/128.gif

PARF is a failed social experiment.

Leave it the way it is. If someone wants to go there it's just a click away. I go there periodically and all it does is elevate my BP.

There is no reason to display rational behavior there because no one responds rationally. Someone starts a thread and w/i two replies it's already out of hand. Nothing against the folks that hang there but nothing is ever accomplished.

It's a pissing contest that no one can win.

Unless your goal is to be covered with...

No doubt. I expect a good fluffin´is in high demand on that island. :)

PARF is purely for entertainment purposes. Anyone who takes offense to it really should stay away. It's cyber-nonsense and should be approached as an entertainment venue only. Seeing people get angry and ultimatley banned over something said by Jon Stewart (a comedian on TV) is really a good chuckle. I go from time to time and get a kick out of some of the threads. Obviously, some are just childish and the great part is, you can just skip those.

I say leave it as it is.

Typical OT thread denigrating those who choose to discuss politics, religion or other serious issues in PARF. Everyone claims to never go there...but know all about it and want to shut it down for others who choose to.

The irony is when folks here complain about the poor behavior and name-calling by the "children" the "crazy" and "idiots" that post there.

Not to bring discord into the land of harmony here where soft porn, swapping recipes and photos of wives and significant others are considered serious discourse for adults, but I find posting here about folks on another part of the forum is more boorish than PARF itself...where the person you slur can take a shot right back at you.

I realize that some that post here are downright snobs...but why do you care so much about what others post in an area of the BBS that you do not read or post on? Seriously?

People that post in PARF are likely as sick of your whine and cheese as you are sick of their exercising their First Amendment rights in PARF.

Its valuable to see how others think. Also to engage in discussions you cannot have in person at work, amongst flesh friends, etc.

There are occasionally interesting discussions that last a page or two before the regulars start throwing poo at each other. The sewage has been particularly deep for the past couple of months though.
If you've never been and are curious but afraid, read finstone's post above (#23). The tone and attitude are typical PARF. If that tone of discourse is not to your liking, stay away from PARF.

I say make a sticky over there with the names and reason for being banned. It would make the place much better. You could either avoid those or look for their posts as comic relief.

Yes WD, perfect example.

Yes, we need it. Either you want to discuss it or you don't, hence a separate forum. I enjoy a good polite discourse but that normally doesn't last beyond the first few posts. As someone else mentioned, it also keeps OT from becoming campaign HQ every four years.

On the other hand, if you want to explore sone interesting ideas and viewpoints, have a thick enough skin to tolerate a true debate with people who strongly disagree with you on issues they feel strongly about...please come on over. Caution, you might find that a long held belief is inaccurate, unsupported by facts, or just not the "universal truth" you always assumed. Be prepared to defend your ideas/posts. If nothing else, you may learn a bit more about the subject.

"An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of being called an idea at all"...Oscar Wilde

I was relieved when PARF was created.

I enjoy the discussions and debates on many topics here in OT, but politics and religion are emotional topics and you cannot debate an emotional argument.

That is why those sorts of discussions deteriorate rapidly.
If folks want to try to bring the rest of the world around to their way of thinking, or just poke sticks at others to get a reaction, then "Thank you Wayne, for making a space where they can do it without polluting the rest of the bandwidth."

Best
Les

I enjoy a good polite discourse, and have learned quite a bit from my fellow Pelicans over the years. But there are certain topics and people that become inflammatory too quickly. There are also individuals who when unable to defend their position with facts instead resort to throwing stones. I grew out of that a long time ago.

If you are seeking pearls...sometimes you must dive pretty deep. They aren't often found floating on the surface.

I don't understand why we even have these periodic threads about whether to keep PARF as is or bring it back to PPOT. I am very happy with the status quo. PPOT is a pleasant forum.

fintstone is right, we do end up taking a shot at the PARFers in our replies to this thread (mine included). Sorry about that.

I would like to implore people like Baz, the thread starter, to just let it go. PARF exists. If you want to go there, go there. If you don't, don't. Full stop.

^^^This!

If it was up to me, I'd eliminate PARF and then strictly ban any political or religious discussion on this forum. People who want to debate public policy or politics ad nauseum can go to some tea party or occupy Wall Street site and knock themselves out. The web is filled with such sites and they all stink like a landfill. This is a car site, FFS.

Yes, I've spent more than enough time in useless arguments with people there, so I'm guilty, but I'd rather not know people on a car BBS *that well*, so that I could buy or sell a set of rims from them w/o the incredibly personal garbage that comes from arguing politics on the Internet behind anonymous screen names.

FWIW, I consider fintstone to be a good guy and a gent but he knows that most there are not either. It stinks.

Parf isn't intelligent conversation...it is jibber.
I tried it at one time, but it's the same circle jerk with all the same usual suspects all the time. Talk about boorish.

Over on the 914world site all politic and religion topics are banned (retired), the PARF thread will get deleted or closed and you will be warned about a vacation. We lost about 3-5 members who in the big picture weren't much of a big loss anyways. At least one of them is now a regular PARF'er here...sorry about that.

There would whines about free speech and democracy, but this is Wayne's house I don't remember my dad's house being a democracy...my house isn't a democracy.
But 914world OT now is a much better place and I consider many as friends, in fact many of us have gone out of our way to meet each other in person.

This certainly makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, as long as it is a separated subforum and one have a choice to not be exposed it doesn´t bother me.

I find the biggest problem in any forum is when some people try to impose their views and opinions on you and get upset when you don't agree with them.

TOLERANCE and RESPECT for others is something some folks have no clue about.

I find NO HARM in bringing up a subject and asking opinions.

If MY opinion is NOT the SAME as yours....feel free to say so...but in a RESPECTFUL tone.

Otherwise you come off looking very SMALL-MINDED.

It's just that simple.

Jim, you nailed it.

Politics and religion are messy things but interesting as well. The fact is there are many extremely intelligent, diverse and thought-provoking folks on PARF, and there used to be a lot more. The depth and breadth of knowledge is striking. But most have left because of 10 or so lowest common denominator folks who seem to have nothing better to do than snipe and ruin threads. I have long wanted a super-PARF, that is everyone gets to participate but there is a one strike you are out rule, at which time you can can go play in regular PARF. Both Todd and Zoltan are more than up to the task.

I don't think many here realize the treasure we have on PARF mostly because it's covered up with raw sewage. I have learned a lot over the years, shifted political positions both left and right, and had the opportunity to better understand "the other side."

A super-PARF with Fintstone, Rikao4, wdfifteen, Foxpaws, jcommin, mreid, nostatic, TABS, jyl, stomachmonkey, hardflex, Taz's Master, Seahawk, MRM, 70SAATMan Noah930, Esel Mann, Hugh R, VaSteve, dan88911, Tobra, Danimal16 and others would be like a real-time online version of The Economist with ever evolving content. That would be a great read.

yeah this is what a lot of forums do. it works pretty well.

overall, if you are going to do politics, you have to contain it. PARF does this pretty well, though many member of PARF bring PARF arguments out of that forum, and that IMO is inappropriate. this is a car forum, we should talk about a cars, and if other topics are preventing talking about cars, then we shouldn't talk about them. there are more then a few politics forums out there you can fight windmills all day if you want to.

Exactly