Autocross, how to?

[porsche4life]

I don't have a 951! So with limited power and grippy tires, Its rare that I can drive it with my right foot! Trust me, I've tried. I need to tighten up my rear sway bar, but it seems like invariably I do that, and then I've got way too much over steer...

Doesn't help that in that video I had been on a nearly year long autocross hiatus, so most of the problems you see are the loose nut behind the wheel..

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

I don't have a 951! So with limited power and grippy tires, Its rare that I can drive it with my right foot! Trust me, I've tried. I need to tighten up my rear sway bar, but it seems like invariably I do that, and then I've got way too much over steer...

Doesn't help that in that video I had been on a nearly year long autocross hiatus, so most of the problems you see are the loose nut behind the wheel..

it happens, when i went to the mr2 on hankooks compared to the 951 i was pissed as ****. i thought the car was a understeering pig, no power to push the nose around etc etc. but really i was driving it poorly, too fast on entry, not fast enough back on the power after turn-in.

in the cold, or rain that problem still manifests itself on that car, i need more adjustable suspension to make it easier to deal with. cause those mid engined cars, they will push on you, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it besides ride it out.

video showing the problem (understeer on entry, oversteer on exit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiVDjUJ1GgY

[J P Stein]

Mid engine push?......sure.

2010-05-16 Wendover NT - Sun Run - 46.015secs - YouTube

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Mid engine push?......sure.

2010-05-16 Wendover NT - Sun Run - 46.015secs - YouTube

have you ever driven a mid engined car? you over cook the corner entry, and she will push on you. its a classic mid-engined driving characteristic ...

[slodave]

Both feet in when it starts to spin! Or something like that.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

have you ever driven a mid engined car? you over cook the corner entry, and she will push on you. its a classic mid-engined driving characteristic ...

Last I checked... A 914 is midengined...

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

Last I checked... A 914 is midengined...

that might not be him or his car ... i have no idea.

mid engined cars, or any car really, will push if you over cook corner entry. then, lots of RWD will kick over into oversteer once the front wheels gain grip again, causing snap oversteer. while the oversteer is not good, the actual problem took place a while back, the corner entry understeer. cure the understeer, and you cure the snap oversteer.

[porsche4life]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't JP win at least one major championship in that 914?

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't JP win at least one major championship in that 914?

then he should well understand push from over cooking corner entry, esp in mid engined cars.

[slodave]

911 spin by moi.

Post by Dave Mason.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

have you ever driven a mid engined car? you over cook the corner entry, and she will push on you. its a classic mid-engined driving characteristic ...

Uh huh.......you got the Punk part right.

July 3rd AXoops - YouTube

It's all in the set up, partner. Overcook at about 35 sec.......set up done that way purposely

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Uh huh.......you got the Punk part right.

July 3rd AXoops - YouTube

i have no idea what you are saying or why.

do you deny that if you over cook corner entry, you will push?

if not ... then we have no disagreement. if you are a national champion, or have just about any HPDE at all, you know that im right. its car dynamics 101.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

It's all in the set up, partner. Overcook at about 35 sec.......set up done that way purposely

and you pushed, until the snap oversteer came on ....

thats what i have been saying since literally my first post on the topic.

[slodave]

Come on, guys. Back to your corners! Round is over.

[Racerbvd]

SCCA here is uber serious, PCA a hoot and a half. PCA lets you run non-Porsches, not a problem,

SCCA is the same here, the local pca region, well, I don't remember time they did their own AX, but my hair was still dark..

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Uh huh.......you got the Punk part right.

July 3rd AXoops - YouTube

LOL, so true... Ignor him, just a clueless kid who thinks he is smarter than those of who who have been playing with these cars since before he was born.
As to 914s, how many times has a 914 based car taken FTD at Parade???

[J P Stein]

I don't deny that anyone that doesn't know how to set up a midengine car for AX may well push on an overcooked entry.....but not one I set up. No push at 35 sec, ....straight line brake, off the binders & turn in....we went right to loose.........that was my butt in the chair.

My MR2 T was set up to do the same.

[cockerpunk]

i cannot fathom for the life of me, anyone who knows how to control a car under performance conditions not knowing that you will push when you over cook a corner. and that when those front wheels re-grip, they will usually rip the back wheels around into snap oversteer.

like this is literally car control 101.

i did have a local national title winning autocross driver tell me that at no point during an autocross run could i estimate the load on each wheel. of course that is freshmen physics, but hey, he has the trophy right? bwahahaha

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

I don't deny that anyone that doesn't know how to set up a midengine car for AX may well push on an overcooked entry.....but not one I set up. No push at 35 sec, ....straight line brake, off the binders & turn in....we went right to loose.........that was my butt in the chair.

My MR2 T was set up to do the same.

then you didn't overcook the corner entry, you braked and turned in and under the speed that the front wheels would push .... that means you didn't over cook it. mean you lost the back from it getting so light from trail braking weight transfer.

im not talking about setup, im talking about driver error.

[LeeH]

You can safely explore the limits of your car by autocrossing, but I feel that I learned way more about car control by attending schools like Road Atlanta, and Bondurant. The skills learned at the schools can be used on the road or the track. You could autocross on your own for years and have lots of fun, but still could be doing it all wrong. Driving schools put your through drills that force you to get out of your comfort zone and really learn the limits of the car by exceeding them in a controlled environment.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by LeeH

You can safely explore the limits of your car by autocrossing, but I feel that I learned way more about car control by attending schools like Road Atlanta, and Bondurant. The skills learned at the schools can be used on the road or the track. You could autocross on your own for years and have lots of fun, but still could be doing it all wrong. Driving schools put your through drills that force you to get out of your comfort zone and really learn the limits of the car by exceeding them in a controlled environment.

This is true....to a point. DE guys and a few racers show up & get their doors blown off at AX.......then disparage AX as armature hour and seldom show up again. Every AX pass is a "qualifying lap" (cept maybe the first one). Each course is different and must be learned in a hurry.......SCCA gives you 3 passes that count.

These are done at less that freeway speed for the most part.....no better training for what you face on the street. (unless you have a Carrera GT and abiding faith in your driving prowess)

I was never that good at driving. My young hired gun (co driver) was 2 sec per lap quicker than I.......that 914 made me look good.
Only one fella that drove the car (via careful selection) was slower than I ,head to head,....by a couple tenths.......a regular poster here, BTW. I'll leave Paul's name out of this.

The Miata is a hell of an AX car, have fun,