Superior Foundation Walls - anyone use them?
 

Appreciate any insight from the great Pelican brain trust, where there is no question that can't be hotly debated! Long story short, I'm buying a new home that was built using this system - the house was built by a very reputable high end builder and the foundation itself was installed by the very first franchisee of Superior Walls here in PA, and they've been doing them for 20+ years. Based on my (admittedly) limited research it seems to me that most issues that have been encountered by folks have been due to improper installation and site prep, but that's just my read. Curious if anyone here has any real world experience, feedback or opinions...there HAS to be opinions, lol! Something tells me results will be binary on this one...love 'em or hate 'em. Feels like a apple vs pc debate coming on....have at it! And thanks in advance!

And just in case you have no idea what I'm talking about....Superior Insulation | Baltimore, Maryland and Washington DC.

5k psi...well, that's pretty strong. Never used it nor heard of it. How long has your house been up?

I've never heard of it, so I don't have any "real world" experience. I did look at the website and thought it was interesting.. First, preparation and installation are key to any project, just like prepping for a good paint job is required for a car & other things. As a general rule, portions of projects or whole projects (like manufactured homes) manufactured at a central or main facility and put together at the site are more precise and better made than onsite construction. I've also never heard of 5K psi concrete, but the design and production (based on the website) look like something I would seriously consider. It looks to me to have advantages over a traditional poured foundation. I would also assume the panels meet engineering and design requirements to handle the stresses and loads. If you're thinking of having an outside inspection done before buying, you might try to find someone familiar with it.

No footing? I don't buy their 'Frank Lloyd Wright' baloney. How many freeze/thaw cycles has this system been through?

Cale Yarborough- "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches."

Never heard of it, but I've seen homes built with pre cast exterior walls and those hold up well. I note they only have a 15 year warrantee. It would be nice if the warrantee was as long as the mortgage would be. I'd enquire as to the engineer approval of the system and if it is approved for all types of soils.

Thanks for the comments so far...HardDrive, yeah the lack of a conventional footing is what seems to give most people concern the first time they look at this, but (in this area at least), there are quite a few high end homes that have been up for 15+ yrs with this system and no problems that I've been able to dig up. I'm not an engineer so can't really comment on the load spread vs a concrete footer, but it's an interesting system for sure. This particular house is just a couple years old.

North-central PA. Used Superior Walls for our earth-sheltered home, I have no complaints. I have no water issues and they seem fairly energy efficient. If I were building another house, I'd not hesitate to use them again. And you are correct, installation does seem to be very important.

These foundation systems are fairly common and have been around for years. There are no inherent problems with them. They work as advertised. The only potential drawback I've run into is - unlike, say, a masonry block wall - they are difficult to repair if physically damaged (an unlikely situation for most) and modifications can be difficult.

Do not be concerned that there is no 'footing'. There is a footing - it's a crushed stone footing, the same as used for wood foundations, and regulated under R403 in the building code. They work just fine, maybe even better because water drains thru them.

Since the materials are only sold to manufacturer-certified contractors, your odds of having installation/workmanship problems are probably less than with a conventional foundation.

Note: I'm a forensic structural engineer and investigate building failures on a daily basis :cool:

I worked new construction at sycamore crossing in oxford, pa. ~260 homes built with superior walls about 10 years ago. Haven't been to the site in years but very impressed when they were being built. Went in by crane in half a day and then could be built on immediately. Cost a little more than traditional foundation but the 5000 psi concrete was said to be waterproof without any added material. Triple seam where walls were attatched. I would build with the system if I was building new. I did see one custom built home at another community with the walls speced. Lower level was finished and looked great.

They built a wood foundation home next to me last year. They used a conventional concrete footing which was anchored with ground hogs 25' down every 5' along the footing. Clay soil here that expands and contracts depending on the moisture in the ground. Then the wood part of the foundation was built on top of the footing with tons of gravel for drainage.

Wouldn't not having a firm base to build on be detrimental to the wall stability? Is crushed stone as good as a concrete footing for building/erecting a wall system on?

A foundation built like a tank is a desirable thing.

My only objection would be the surface grading, perimeter drainage, presence of underground springs, soil type, installation/conditions, or anything else that might compromise the integrity of the structure.

Example:
My father once built a tank house with an overkill poured concrete foundation.
Years later, a neighbor (several house down) forcefully drove in vertical beams for his new foundation.
Sitting on the second floor while this was happening, it felt like an earthquake.
Liquefaction.
The whole waterfront was swamp backfill.

Like I said, crushed stone footings are perfectly fine. Read IRC Chapter 4 for homework. But what do I know, I've only been investigating building failures for 30+ years ;)

Yeah, but 3/4 crushed gravel is not in-failable...
1). Perhaps that side of the building has extensive tree leaf buildup because of wind.
2). Someone dumps in a bunch of soil for a perimeter garden.
=Gravel fills up within ten years.

Our local Habitat for Humanity tried using a very similar foundation system years ago.

The foundations of habitat houses are typically farmed out to a contractor, but the waterproofing, tile drainage work and back-filling were often volunteer assisted to reduce costs.

In this one instance the contractor was supposed to hold-off on back filling until the first floor platform was in place, and then only bulldoze partway, leaving the fill against the foundation to be done shovel by shovel.

The contractor did not wait for anything (only kicker's holding foundation in place) and bowed in the wall real bad, necessitating an exhaustive dig-out by hand.

Concrete foundations are considered +100 year foundations, wood foundations are considered 50 year foundations, maybe at most 75 years if done correctly. At least these are the numbers I remember from 25 years ago being tossed around.

Here in Michigan we have a lot of clay soil which swells when wet, so I don't like wood foundations at all personally.

http://jbanta.wordpress.com/tag/expansive-soil/
http://jbanta.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/pa.jpg
If you have sandy soil you can get away with murder foundation wise. However there are these things call "veins" which can make you have a really bad day.

To compare soils, this is Michigan.
http://jbanta.wordpress.com/category/state-information/michigan/
http://jbanta.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/mi.jpg

True, but remember these flaws are typically learned after the discovery of a problem which could lurk for years undetected.

I'd expect a generous discount on such a home, something to cover a new foundation at least half-way.

You should check with your insurance company too, you don't want higher rates or other hidden costs.

Really appreciate all of the thoughtful feedback, thanks guys! Thanks for the maps kach...pretty sure I'm I'm in the brown section there but kinda hard to pinpoint - could be on the edge. Hope everyone enjoys the weekend.

When they excavated for the house next door they found two types of soil running thru the property. The split of the soil was right over where the house was going to be built. You could see the two types of soil with your eye. One type was a potters type of clay and the other was a crumbly type of clay. Both clays, but both different and with different building properties. That's why they went to the expense of using the ground hogs to anchor the foundation.

Do you mean "helical piers"?

New Order Enterprizes - Groundhog Anchor and Support System

Might be called different things in different areas, but this is what I first heard them called. I used a type them for my new front porch instead of drilled poured on site piles.

It's one thing to enjoy the FLW prairie style, etc. but he built a whole lot of crap as well.

This!!
 

This!!

Is it your experience that Superior Walls foundations are more likely to have hidden flaws, that lurk for years undiscovered resulting in the need to replace a foundation, than a conventional block foundation?

No.

I'm sure it's a fine product when installed properly. And it sounds like this builder had plenty of experience unlike the Habitat contractor I spoke of.

However as with any construction type problems may develop over time, which is why people do home inspections before (not after) they buy.

Going negative for a moment, if this contractor had a history of using this foundation system despite any red flags (ie..unsuitable soil conditions) and going ahead because it was "their standard procedure" then there could be cause for concern.

Someone in this thread previous said this wall system was more expensive than standard foundations. I do not know for sure, but doubt seriously this. The main attraction of using this type of basement wall is "construction time" and "energy efficiency".

Longevity issues seem to demand a discount in my opinion, but I've never conducted an real estate assessment, so I'm talking out of my arse on that issue.

I do not see a stated or even an implied life-span on this product.
Superior Walls By Collier Foundation Systems, Inc.

Maybe someone can chime in on this issue.

If it's expected to last 50 years, and it's a 25 year old house, the value should be discounted or based on future replacement costs in my opinion.

As a rule; stick build homes has a life expectancy of only 50 years, 75 with proper maintenance. Masonry construction 100 years which can be extended to 200 years (university buildings for instance).

There will be many exceptions to these rules to be sure. These are just general guidelines.

HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical and of course roofing materials all have limited life spans which may be shorter than the basic structure of the home. In the end, all we ever buy is time, the more time we buy the more expensive it is.

Remember the story of the three little pigs and the big bad wolf which would huff and puff?

You get the idea.

Kach, they are slightly more expensive. However, they have built in insulation and are ready for finishing basements (no studs needed). Easier to meet new energy codes. I know a few local builders switching over, and have spoken to the local inspectors about them, they know of some 20+ years with no problems.

25+ YO Block foundations were not reinforced, and are much weaker and may need to be repointed. Poured walls have their own problems, especially if the contractor is not supervised.... Failure above was because directions were not followed, first floor deck framing needs to be done and basement slab poured before back-filling. Can't take shortcuts with drainage or stone.

I have not switched and continue to use poured concrete mostly because of what I read here. Although I think superior walls have advantages, I think the average customer is less accepting of a new product like this.

Thanks again everyone...looks like the deal is moving forward so I'll report back in 20 years and see if they are still holding up! Seriously though, I'm becoming quite comfortable with them the more i read and understand...I agree with dad911, I think it's not the easiest sell to a lot of people because your standard poured foundation seems so time tested and the "why change what works" attitude prevails. That said, I like to be different, so I'm hoping this foundation treats me well! Appreciate the feedback as always...

"Someone in this thread previous said this wall system was more expensive than standard foundations. I do not know for sure, but doubt seriously this. The main attraction of using this type of basement wall is "construction time" and "energy efficiency". "

The builder told me it cost him $1K more per house (y2k dollars) but felt all the selling points were worth it. Could be installed in any weather, could be built on immediately, sold with water proof warranty, could be finished at less cost, ect.

George, your earlier post indicated that you reccomend a significant discount as opposed to other foundation types, due to liklihood of unseen problems. I just wondered if that was due to experience with those problems being more prevalent with SWF. My (anectodal) experience has led me to have confidence that SWF is a fine product if installed properly, and I would not hesitate to reccomend it. While I have had friendships with several contractors, and relationships with builders and designers who use them with good experience, I am interested in your experience with the product, as it would color my opinion.

I also said I was talking out of my arse if it came down to evaluating value as part of a Realtor's assessment.

1. I have been unable to find a projected life span for this product.

2. If the life span is 50 years for the "system", and 100 years for concrete and the age of the home is 25 years old, then is the concrete foundation home worth more because of future replacement costs? I don't know, just asking.

3. I have never used this product.

4. One important item being over looked is the energy use, if you save money long term on energy bills, then this savings should be part of your consideration.

If I were you, just call up the foundation company and ask for a projected life-span.

A fair amount of homes in my neighborhood have new basements put in, some because they are rentals with lower level apartments, some because of age and failure. My own basement has a layer of ThoroSeal on the inside (and outside) trying to hold it together a little longer, nothing lasts forever.

Based on what others have said in this thread, get the house inspected, if it checks out put an offer in.

I just wish I knew what the expected life-span of this foundation system is, then I could spout off an enhanced value or depreciated value.

As it stands threat it like you would any other home purchase (risk), and take your best guess.

EDIT: I re-read Post #14 where I mentioned "a discount", that was meant to read "a discount should a problem be discovered", and not "a discount for undiscovered problems". It is not written so clearly, sorry.

The overall concept of a value or discount based on maintenance and longevity is not exclusive to this foundation system, it applies to everything inside and outside the building and site. Old septic system systems and swimming pools are notorious for lowering the value of an otherwise good home.

Learning Curve
Learning Curve: Permanent Wood Foundations - The Inspector's Journal Forums
I suggest hiring an inspector familiar with these foundations and able to do these tests.

Permanent Wood Foundations
by Nick Gromicko and Kenton Shepard
http://www.nachi.org/permanent-wood-foundations.htm
A very negative thread by some inspectors:
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f23/pwf-permanent-powdered-wood-foundation-23709/

I don't know if the rod mentioned in the quote above is the same as the screwdriver method mentioned in the second link - sounds invasive to me if this is what they are doing. I was hoping they used a moisture meter like they do for boat hull inspections, something not poking holes in the membrane or panel skin.

INSPECTING PERMANENT WOOD FOUNDATIONS
November 30th, 2010 | 16 comments
http://www.structuretech1.com/2010/11/wood-foundations/

I'll put my 20 cents worth in regarding wood and "inferior" wall systems.
Wood systems would be a no unless what your are putting on them is disposable. The current treatments for wood systems simply do not last. If you'd make them out of Cyprus I'd be willing to go for that.
"Superior" wall systems have various flaws. Unless the stone foundations are well done the walls will move and crack. Well done means excavated and stone placed and tamped in lifts with no freeze thaw cycles while stone is placed. Then, concrete needs placed for floor prior to backfill ( never happens that way btw). As well, no treatment of foundation wall is done in that it's a 5000psi mix and "waterproof". Well with 2" of concrete that is poured,shipped prior to 28 day cure, and placed while curing I have no confidence in it not getting cracks and therefore leaks. As well, with insulation attached to the back side if you are in a high termite area you'll have no idea if you've got termite tubes under the insulation.
If I was building a house and the gave me superior walls I'd use em for my garage but not my house.
I'd go with 8" of well done concrete anyday.

I inspect commercial construction for a living btw, w/10+ yrs inspecting and 30 years in construction.

Around here we use 12" block or 10" pour.

I saw a 8" block basement once in my old neighborhood while it was being built by some Arabs. A couple of weeks later I went back to see the basement walls all caved in, no rebar, no web reinforcement, no solid fill in the corners, nothing.

Any system can fail if done wrong.

Rarely if ever does any build basement foundation walls with masonry anymore. By the time you place bar/fill at 5' vertical max pours per lift it isn't worth it. 8" with bar concrete or 10" w/o vertical bar and you're done.
The folks who like Superior walls use them as a cheap way to build without pouring concrete. "IF" they were so awesome nobody would be using poured concrete the same as we no longer do masonry because of cost vs product

dyount, do you see problems with SWF leaking, cracking and shifting when installed properly?

If..... the footing of stone is done properly by a competent contractor and the walls are placed correctly and the floor is poured then the floor above framed and then back filled they should be fine.
Problem is for the most part if the structure is backfilled and has insulation on the inside you don't know if it has a crack in it until the basement has a puddle in it. This time of year in PA you wouldn't have a clue other than water marks on the floor.

Fact of the matter is depending upon who's doing the foundation work a poured concrete wall could fail just as easily.
I inspected a rack of townhouses some years ago that used SWF's and the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Frozen ground without blankets , no hard hats on the set crew,missing connection bolts,horrible caulking between panels,bad connections that didn't meet spacing requirements for attachment of panel to building.
Then again I failed a footing 2 weeks ago because the builder had no blanket to cover what was to be poured. "It's below the frost line I don't have to protect it"..... Umm yeah dude it's 11 degrees now and below 0 by morning.... no you don't get to pour until I see blankets next to the ditch.
I'd never have that conversation on a commercial jobsite. They'd be ready to pour,cover and also have a laser thermometer so I'd know exactly how warm it all was before pour (earth within 20 degrees of concrete temp)

FWIW, this is a new (~2yr old) house and I know for a fact that the Superior walls were installed by a very competent outfit that has LOTS of experience with the product...floor was poured before backfill (pics to prove) and everything done per spec so I feel quite confident the installation is up to par....the question i suppose is to ultimate longevity versus a poured foundation. Guess I'll see...

I was asking to see if you were more critical of the product or the installation (and I understand that if the installation requirements are too difficult to meet that perhaps the product is at fault for requiring a perfect world). And purely for my benefit. My experience has been positive, but if asked my opinion (like in this thread) I don't want to present an opinion based on an exceptional experience, as one that is typical.